Product lessons from Waymo | Shweta Shrivastava (Waymo, Amazon, Cisco)

[00:00] Are you practically trying to challenge your own assumptions? [00:03] is extremely important, right? As a beginner product manager, as well as a seasoned product leader, if you're not doing enough of that, [00:10] then I think you might not be listening. If there's no conflict, if there's no contention, [00:15] Then not. [00:16] Something is missing. Welcome to Lenny's podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won experiences building and growing today's most successful products. [00:30] Today, my guest is Shweta Srivastava. Shweta is Senior Director of Product Management at Waymo, [00:35] which, if you're not familiar with Waymo, they are building self-driving cars that are already live on the streets in [00:41] San Francisco, LA, and Phoenix. I actually got to take a ride in one ahead of this chat, and you'll hear all about that in this episode. Before joining Waymo, Shweta was Chief Product Officer at Naoto, an AI startup focusing on driver automation safety. Before that, she was Head of Product Management at Amazon Web Services for their database and analytics services, and before that, she was at Cisco. In our conversation, we delve into what it's like to work as a PM at Waymo, and how it's both different and similar to software-only products. We talk about their [01:11] including how they track progress towards a future of self-driving cars, how they build subtle cues and behaviors into the cars to create trust for the rider and also for other cars on the road, plus Shweta's biggest lessons about building products and teams across the many companies she's worked at. I can't wait for a future of every car being self-driving, and it was super fun to learn about what goes into making this all happen. With that, I bring you Shweta Shrubhastava after a short word from our sponsors. Shweta Shrubhastava

[01:39] This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate your growth. Thousands of fast-growing companies like Gusto, Com, Quora, and Modern Treasury trust Vanta to help build, scale, manage, and demonstrate their security and compliance programs and get ready for audits in weeks, not months. By offering the most in-demand security and privacy frameworks such as SOC 2, ISO 27001, GDPR, HIPAA, and many more, Vanta helps companies [02:09] growth, build efficient compliance processes, mitigate risks to their businesses, and build trust with external stakeholders. Over 5,000 fast-growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2 and these other frameworks. For a limited time, Lenny's podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta. Go to vanta.com slash lenny. That's V-A-N-T-A.com slash lenny to learn more and to claim your discounts. Get started today. [02:39] public.com we want to tell you about their new treasury accounts which earn a 4.8 percent yield on your cash that is higher than a high yield savings account while still being backed by the full faith and credit of the u.s government treasury yields are at a 15 year high but buying u.s treasuries is super complicated if you go to a bank or navigate an ancient government website or at least that was the case now you can move your cash into u.s treasuries with the flexibility

[03:09] cash whenever you want even before your treasury bills hit maturity there are no hold periods no settlement days just a safe place to park your cash and earn a reliable yield public will automatically reinvest your treasury bills at maturity so you don't have to do anything to continue growing your yield and you can manage your treasuries alongside stocks ETFs crypto and any alternative assets do all your investing in one place and earn 4.8 percent a higher yield than [03:39] treasury account at public.com slash leddy. [03:44] Shweta, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Great to be here. [03:52] It's great to have you. I thought we'd start with just a little bit about what it is you do at Waymo today. What are you and your teams responsible for at Waymo? [04:02] Yes, my team's responsible for three key areas, I would say. One is building a big part of the software that actually runs on board. [04:11] the filial autonomous vehicle and that determines the actual behavior [04:15] and trajectory of the vehicle. [04:17] Secondly, building the simulation tools and technologies that are required to validate the performance of the system. [04:25] And then the third one of the teams focused on commercially scaling our ride-hailing business, which is one of our key go-to-market applications for the technology we're building. [04:33] So as you know, you arranged a ride for me in a Waymo in San Francisco. It was actually a really rainy day.

[04:40] And it was quite mind blowing. I've never been in a self-driving car that had no driver sitting in the front. [04:47] I have a Tesla and I turn on self-driving sometimes, but I've never experienced just sitting in the back and this thing just rising around. [04:53] Also, just like a memory I had is like the app to call the Waymo is like, it feels like Google Maps. [04:58] Except instead of just telling you how to get to a place, like a car shows up and just takes you there. [05:03] And then you could change course as you're driving and it's a, [05:06] It's crazy how quickly it became normal. I'm just like, all right, we're just riding around San Francisco in this self-driving car and just... [05:12] sitting in the back and telling it where to go. [05:14] And so anyway, I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions around this. But again, thank you for arranging that right. [05:20] quite special. No, I'm glad that you were able to do that and on a rainy day. So that's a special bonus because again, you know, the technology has been performing very well, which has been very heartening for us to see. So. [05:30] A few questions along these lines. One thing that I noticed that was really cool is, [05:34] We were trying to turn into a lane, and there was cars coming in that lane, just continuing to move. [05:38] And the car just kind of subtly was inching its way out, communicating through this interesting body language thing of just like, hey, can someone let me in? And it's interesting there's no eye contact. [05:49] involved and it's just like this [05:51] I don't know, gesture that you all have to develop? [05:54] And so I guess the question here is just like what, [05:56] What have you all learned? I don't know if you even work on that piece of it, but just I'm curious. [06:00] How do you think about creating this like body language of the car communication? [06:04] system to help people understand what it's trying to do. [06:07] We're using a lot of human driving data to train our deep-learn models.

[06:12] So it's important to make sure that the behavior of the car doesn't seem robotic. [06:17] It can feel quite unnatural. And from the get-go, we focused on building a filial time system, so it's important to have that familiarity, that trust, [06:25] building with the writers where they're not daunted by technology. They don't feel like they're sitting in a robot. It has to feel [06:33] very human-like but in a good way, right? Making it safer than human driving but then not making it feel unnatural. [06:40] And so we have, you know, deep learn models that can understand what the other road user's intent is. So stuff like, [06:48] which way the pedestrian is looking, right? Or what is their body orientation? Because that could tell you which way they're headed. [06:56] the road signs or the gestures, right? Somebody is trying to stop the weak hole. [07:00] the system can understand all those signals, [07:03] So because we're using deep learned models trained on human driving, but again, in a good way, right, we... [07:11] discard the bad human-driving data. [07:14] uh, [07:15] we can mimic human driving behavior in a good way. And that's why you saw the behavior that you saw yesterday. [07:22] Now, one thing to note is, [07:25] We can't also just completely rely on explicit gestures and signs, right? [07:30] Because a lot of driving is also social norms, right? If you're in a particular section in San Francisco, maybe it's okay for pedestrians to cross even when they don't have a walk sign, right?

[07:42] Another city, another intersection might have a different social norm when it comes to pedestrians crossing the four-way stop sign or the crosswalk or what have you. [07:51] And so the car also has to learn about those social norms and be able to react to it. So it's, like I said, you know, it's... [07:58] We don't realize how sophisticated, how iractive, [08:02] and how social driving really is. [08:05] And, [08:06] with our artificial intelligence capabilities, you know, we have been able to [08:11] incorporate a lot of that into our system behavior. [08:14] So before Waymo, you worked at non-self-driving software companies, worked at Amazon, Cisco, a few other companies. [08:21] I'm curious what you found to be the biggest difference working in a company like Waymo. [08:25] versus a traditional software company. I said earlier, it's a highly complex [08:31] a technically complex system that we have built and we're improving. [08:36] And it's, if I may see, so it's the most game-changing product that anybody would ever work on. I don't know. Amazon's pretty cool, but I totally get you. [08:46] I've worked at Amazon, I'm a fan, right? [08:49] and they have been pretty transformational with AWS and on the e-commerce side. But a fully autonomous driving system, it's also a very, very hard problem, right? [08:59] it's transformational from that perspective too. [09:02] I would say that the PMCR have to go [09:05] have to be able to go technically deep uh you know compared to what um [09:10] the what they would do in a in other

[09:14] you know, software products. [09:16] They have to be able to get into the details as much as needed. [09:21] They have to be. [09:22] okay with uncertainty and ambiguity. Again, I think that is part and parcel of any product management [09:28] role, but it's even more so here, right? This is a long game and so you have to have the tenacity to play the long game and [09:34] and be continuously improving the product and make this thing a broad reality, right, in future. [09:41] So those are some of the attributes. I would also say that [09:45] There is some level of self-selection here. You have to be driven by the mission. [09:51] to make the road safer, right? We have about 1.35 million deaths that happen every year. [09:57] across the world from traffic accidents. And most of that is attributable to driving errors and driver distraction, right? And I'm sure I've been guilty of, you know, being on, on, [10:06] checking my text messages while driving. I've seen other drivers do that, right, with fully autonomous technology, you know, [10:13] you don't have that risk. That's the risk we're trying to minimize. [10:16] they have to be driven by that mission. [10:19] One other thing is that the concept of MVP, which is so [10:23] widely popular in the SaaS product management world or product management world in general, [10:28] has a whole new meaning here at Bebo when you work in a product like this because... [10:33] Safety is. [10:35] is you know top of mind for all of us right and we can't really cut corners on safety there's no [10:40] the MVP bar itself for safety is extremely high for us.

[10:46] right so [10:49] the core product management philosophy of sort of, you know, getting an MVP out there and then iterating with, [10:54] the real-world deployment. It applies, but it's just a different [10:59] It's a different bar on that MVP. [11:03] Touching again on safety and human behavior, [11:07] I was thinking a little bit as you were chatting about [11:09] So I have a Tesla, which has self-driving car, self-driving capabilities. [11:14] And intellectually, I know it's probably going to drive a lot better than I am. [11:18] But I still feel like I need to like disengage it occasionally when I'm like on a curvy road. I'm just like, I don't know about this. I don't want to like. [11:26] leave room for error if there's something weird that happens. [11:30] And imagine someone designing product for that weird behavior. We're like, I should probably trust it because that's probably a lot better driver than I am. But I don't know. I feel like I can do a better job. [11:39] Is there anything you've learned about human behavior or how to design? [11:43] software for these sorts of experiences that maybe surprised you or is that you thought was really interesting? [11:49] or that was really important. [11:50] Since you mentioned Tesla, you know, I just want to clarify that it's, um, [11:54] It's a different... [11:55] system that we're building, right? Which is for Waymo, we started by solving the problem of [12:02] fully autonomous driving without a human driver at the wheel from the get-go, right? [12:07] It's not a driver assist or ADAS system which relies on the human driver taking over when there's a complex situation, right? So I think that... [12:14] expectation is built into that kind of a product right and

[12:18] And so the human... [12:19] you know, the folks who are using that product were also [12:22] have that mindset that hey I should be [12:25] ready to take over when the situation demands. [12:29] Because we built the system from the get-go to work in a fully autonomous mode without a human driver intervention right at the wheel, we had to... [12:40] integrate this into our design philosophy from the very beginning that it this has to feel [12:47] credible, predictable, and [12:49] The writers have to be able to trust [12:52] the system, right? So that has been sort of the core of the design philosophy, right? [12:56] And so what happens is, and I heard this from you as well, which resonated with me, and I've heard this from a lot of our writers, that, [13:03] they feel, you know, it's like, [13:05] For the first five minutes of the ride, it's, wow, you know, is this thing really happening, right? But then it starts to feel very natural. [13:13] And, you know, as if this is how it was always meant to be, right, after the first five minutes, like, [13:17] Ah. [13:18] Uneventful. That's exactly how it's supposed to feel, but it's not a happenstance. [13:23] that it feels that way in all the [13:25] the naturalness, the smoothness, and still adhering to safety at all times. [13:32] are things that are designed into the system, [13:35] and then we make sure that the writer has visibility into what's happening, the [13:40] If they're not wearing the seatbelt, the right of support would call them, right? So then they know, okay, there's a human, [13:45] that they can reach out to if they have an issue. [13:47] They can look at the monitor and the...

[13:50] in the car, right, to understand what the car is seeing. So I think all these little things, [13:54] help develop their trust in the system. [13:57] On that same note, what's one thing that you've [14:00] your teams have built that creates a lot of trust, or maybe it was a surprisingly important [14:05] element in creating trust in the experience. [14:08] like in terms of the product, especially in, I don't know, either the app or the in-car experience. [14:14] I don't know if I can point to one thing. You know, it is, again, this is such a holistic experience that I think it has to be a bunch of small things to make it [14:23] feel natural, transparent, and trustworthy to the writers. And I can give you one example [14:29] that I don't think I've mentioned in the discussion so far. [14:33] Again, because the system is designed [14:37] to be cautious and [14:39] defensive but still making adequate progress. [14:42] in the absence of traffic, it will never go above the speed limit. It doesn't go above the speed limit. It adheres to the speed limit. It's something that a lot of our riders actually appreciate about the system. [14:54] Now, it turns out that [14:57] Adhering to the speed limit, even without traffic, sometimes is not the best thing. You have to go below the speed limit. And we realized that for driving in the slopes or the gradients, [15:11] you know, the street with [15:13] in San Francisco, there are many of those, right? [15:16] The human brain is trained to, or the human drivers are, subconsciously, they slow down when they go downhill.

[15:22] Yeah. [15:24] The autonomous vehicle doesn't necessarily have to do that, right, if it's safe. [15:28] and if it's staying below the speed limit but [15:30] But we learned that this is a more natural driving experience, right? And this is what our riders [15:38] would also expect in terms of the experience. So, [15:41] That's something that we then modify the behavior on. That makes sense. I would want it to slow down. On the other hand, if I feel like I could trust it, I wish there was a button to just like, [15:52] Crazy mode, just go. Go for it. [15:55] kind of digging a little bit into the product team's way of working. [15:58] What are KPIs that you all use to track progress? [16:02] I don't know, either amongst some of the teams you lead or also just broadly progress on self-driving technology? How do you know you're making progress? Is it just like miles driven or something else? There are tons of these metrics, right, that we... [16:15] analyze on sort of a daily basis, weekly basis, depending upon what the metric is. But if I were to categorize them sort of two broad categories, that'd be the commercial and operational metrics. [16:26] in the system behavior metrics, right? [16:29] So one thing, one important thing to note here is that it's not, we're not [16:33] in a proof of concept or a pilot phase anymore. This is the service that we are offering to writers, you know, paid service in Phoenix and [16:41] also it's open to public in San Francisco, right? [16:44] It's an actual service, and so we'd [16:47] tracking the commercial metrics in terms of the trips per week, the daily or weekly active users, and all the funnel metrics that you can think of.

[16:58] Also the operational metrics, right? [17:00] the cost, right? Well, how much is the thing [17:03] costing us to operate [17:05] So that's, I would say, all the stuff on the... [17:08] on the commercial scaling side and then on the on the driver performance the driver [17:12] VemoDriver is the technology name, as I alluded to earlier. The driver performance metrics, you know, they span across [17:19] uh safety [17:21] compliance with their old rules [17:23] our ability to make adequate progress as in, you know, not get unduly stopped or stranded. [17:29] and [17:30] dense traffic situations as an example. What are just specific metrics there? Anything you could share? Just what is the actual goal on one of those teams? The goal here is to be able to drive safer than [17:41] than humans right now. [17:44] We don't really have one standard human driving benchmark, right, safety, [17:49] benchmark that [17:51] everybody uses, right? But we do [17:53] together. [17:54] Um, [17:55] enough of that data right we have access to enough of that data to [17:59] uh, phone. [18:00] an opinion on or [18:02] a metric on, a benchmark on. [18:04] What does human driving look like? How many [18:07] Collisions, as an example. [18:09] Human Driver would have every... [18:12] 100,000 miles. [18:13] And then we want to make sure that [18:16] our performance is better than that. [18:18] Right, so that's... [18:20] I'm simplifying, right, and several things go into sort of both calculating the benchmark as well as our performance against that benchmark, but that at the core,

[18:28] of it, you know, that's what we're trying to do. [18:30] So that's on the safety side and then I would say on the... [18:33] Ah, yay. [18:35] the tops and strandings which goes in a different direction. Hey, you can be very safe if you're not moving at all. That's not what we're building, right? [18:44] We need to make sure that the riders get to their destination on time. So it has to be making, it has to be appropriately assertive and be making the right progress. And so... [18:54] Again, how... [18:57] How much did the vehicle slow down unduly, right? Or in how many instances in a given way, [19:05] Did it have to [19:07] rely on sort of a rescue help, right? [19:09] Those are the situations that we want to avoid. And then what [19:12] how much did we slow down the traffic for other users, right? So we again do extensive benchmarking and [19:18] look at the priors, etc., and really understand [19:22] What would an adequate performance be there and measure our own? [19:26] against that. [19:27] Awesome. Today's episode is brought to you by Element. I just recently discovered this stuff actually from another podcast, and it is such sweet, salty goodness. Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with a science-backed electrolyte ratio, and unlike most electrolyte drinks, there's no sugar, coloring, artificial ingredients, gluten, or any other BS. Getting enough electrolytes helps prevent and eliminate headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, [19:57] is the exclusive hydration partner to Team USA Weightlifting and many other Olympic athletes. Also, dozens of NBA and NFL teams and players rely on Element to stay hydrated, along with Navy SEAL teams, FBI sniper teams, and the Marines. You can try Element totally risk-free. If you don't like it, you can share it with a salty friend, and they'll give you your money back, no questions asked. To give it a shot, go to drinklmnt.com slash lenny, and you'll get a free

[20:27] watermelon salt. You won't find this offer publicly available, so you have to head to drinklmnt.com slash Lenny to take advantage of this offer. Stay salty! [20:37] I'm guessing you're not going to have an answer to when do we think we'll have fully self-driving level 5 autonomy. [20:42] So let me ask you a different approach to that question of just what's getting, what's most in the way of us getting to full, [20:49] self-driving where we don't have to do anything ever [20:52] Is it miles driven? Is it tech breakthroughs that still have to happen? Is it regulation and just cities being like... [20:58] Okay, it's fine. What's the biggest blocker at this point, or bottleneck? So let me share my opinion on the L5. So I think L4, for those who might not be very familiar with this term, you know, L2L3 is... [21:11] still very much [21:12] Driver assists, you know, there is... [21:14] gets to some level of autonomy but then relies on the human driver at the wheel to be able to take over in complex situations l4 is [21:21] From the Autonomous. [21:23] without a human driver at the wheel. [21:25] and no expectation of a human driver at the wheel. [21:28] That's what we've been focusing on. L5 would be... [21:31] in any kind of road, right? Completely unstructured, off-roading, [21:36] in that kind of an environment, be able to drive without [21:40] without any map, without any [21:42] Fires, what have you? [21:44] And, [21:45] We believe that by offering the kind of service that we are offering in Phoenix and San Francisco and then LA, [21:51] through the rest of this year, [21:53] and other cities in future is it helps realize that the the dream of the fully autonomous driving in a big way right without having to go to l5

[22:04] So, [22:05] I think that in... [22:07] The technology is already there. [22:09] you know, L5, I'm not sure, you know, maybe that becomes more niche, etc. It solves very, [22:14] specific use cases. [22:16] In terms of the blocker, I would say the technology is there, but it still needs improvement, especially, you know, we were not able to drive in snow yet. Right. Something that we have to tackle in future. I can barely drive in slow. I get that. That's right. [22:28] Yeah, and I don't like to drive in snow, even Tafel. I avoid on very snowy days. But yeah, that is something that we still have to build as a capability in driving frog in snow fine now, so that's great. Makes sense. Clearly, there's a lot of little things, a lot of little things, a lot of big things, and it's a really interesting point about we don't need all fours. [22:46] Great for most people. [22:48] Maybe a last question along this track, and then I want to pivot to a different area. [22:53] So Waymo has been this long-term investment for Alphabet, and many PMs often try to [22:58] create buy-in and keep buy-in for large investment in a large project. [23:02] I know this is like a different scale of investment than what most PMs work through, but... [23:07] Is there anything you've learned about keeping leaders bought in and excited and continuing to invest? [23:12] in a project for years and years. [23:15] And specifically just like tactics that keep people excited and bought into a long term investment. [23:21] Yeah, so first of all, we are fortunate that we have the backing from Alphabet and other investors. [23:29] you know, the autonomous vehicle industry is interesting, and I think the last year has been interesting with more consolidation happening, right? So I think the name of the game here is to

[23:38] uh, [23:39] is to show progress, right? Show meaningful progress and meaningful progress not just in terms of [23:45] technology but in terms of commercial deployments, right? That is [23:49] That is the rubber meets the road, if you will. [23:52] phase of the product. And [23:55] the results have to speak for themselves for our investors to have the confidence in us right so notwithstanding [24:01] You know, what's happening to other AV companies in the... [24:04] in the industry, you know, it's about what we are doing and then look at the progress that we've been making and where we are headed and the fact that we've been sort of accelerating our milestones and going through our own expectations. I think these are very positive. [24:19] signals to our investors as well. And we're at another startup as well. It's not about [24:25] you have to do what's the right thing for the business, right? That's what you feel. Your focus is on [24:29] creating value for the customers, creating value for the writers. You have to build a business that [24:35] makes sense and the investors see that too. We're not going to do something unnatural or [24:41] something that doesn't align with the business goals in order to [24:46] gain any short-term brownie points with investors. I think it doesn't work that way, and investors will see through that too. Definitely, Alphabet, she knows. [24:54] has been our backer for forever, right? [24:58] It's really about focusing on building the right business and doing the right thing for the users. I think that's a great takeaway that if you're finding that there isn't buy-in, [25:06] and continued support for what you're building. Focus on

[25:10] momentum and showing success. It's pretty simple if you think about it. [25:13] And it's hard to cut something that's just showing success. Yeah. And... [25:18] And so even at the scale of Waymo, [25:21] It's a great lesson. So that makes sense. We talked a bit about other companies you've worked at. And so I want to kind of zoom out a little bit. [25:28] And I just want to ask, you worked at Amazon, Cisco, Waymo now, startup you mentioned. What are just some of the biggest lessons you've learned about successfully building successful teams and successful products? In terms of the product, whether you're working for a big company or a startup, the core product management tenant is still the same, which is you have to work backwards from the customer problem or the user problem, right? [25:52] building a technology for the sake of it doesn't really go that far, right? So you really have to focus on the [26:00] What are you building? Who are you building it for? And what problem are you solving? [26:06] right and that this applies in any context right and amazon has [26:10] this um [26:11] Great process where the PMs have to write. [26:14] a press release for the finished product even before they start building the product. Right? That's the first thing that they have to do is to write that press release. [26:22] like the products about to launch today, right? What are you telling the users about that product? [26:28] really forces them to think about the value proposition more thoroughly, right? [26:33] And I know many other companies are starting to sort of look at that practice as well, but I found it very effective. [26:38] Do you do that at Waymo, or do folks do that? Is there kind of a system there?

[26:42] The explicit PR/FAQ process that Amazon follows is, I think Waymo has its own version of it, but it is about focusing on the customer problem. Now, Waymo is also a very different kind of product. It's highly integrated. [26:56] So, and different types of product management flavors, if you will, right? Some are more technically focused and technically deep, some more commercially focused. [27:04] So they all adapt. They have their versions of working backwards from the customer problem. [27:10] But that still remains the core tenet in my mind. [27:13] the [27:14] Other big lessons, at least working in some of the large companies that I have had is [27:21] It's also very important to know what you're not building, right? [27:25] And this one is not as big companies. I would say even in startup, it's extremely important to know what you're not willing because you could very easily get swayed by. [27:33] Customer X telling you to do this, Customer Y telling you to do that, and a product that tries to be all things to all people. [27:39] you know, usually doesn't end up going anywhere. So that focus, that prioritization and being crisp about [27:45] What you're building? [27:46] and what you're not building is very important. [27:49] And then in the context of the large companies, what I was going to say was, [27:53] I think it's the classic innovator's dilemma, right? [27:58] large companies tend to be [28:01] the market share leaders in their [28:03] focus areas and [28:05] So the product team and the product leaders, [28:07] can get very incremental in their product strategy and [28:11] And then lo and behold, you see an upstart that comes and disrupts them.

[28:16] And so I have definitely learned the lesson that [28:19] You need to disrupt yourself before somebody else does, right? Because it's going to happen. It's inevitable. [28:24] and large companies that are constantly sort of, you know, challenging themselves and disrupting their [28:29] their own models or their own product capabilities to produce even something more transformational for [28:35] for the customers are the ones that really succeed. And I think this is where the product leaders have to bring in that mindset of [28:42] Are we getting too complacent or... [28:44] It's time to dispute. That's such a good reminder. Is there an example of you doing that or something you worked on where you got [28:51] the company to [28:52] commit to something that maybe could have been a threat. [28:56] from a disruptor or maybe even just seeing that happening at a company? Just like, is there a specific project or investment that comes to mind? [29:02] And Amazon, I launched or I was the first PM and then I drove the team around it. [29:08] for a no-code application development platform called Honeycode, right? [29:12] That was a brand new service. Amazon had never delved in that space before. It was more infrastructure focused and [29:20] Oh. [29:21] And this was sort of a first of its kind service that the team worked on. [29:26] And this has played out many times in my career. And so I am a big believer in disrupting yourself before somebody else does it. [29:33] What do you think is the most underrated PM skill that you suggest people, maybe especially early in their career? [29:38] that they should focus on maybe that they're probably not thinking about. [29:42] i think the the listening and um [29:45] And empathy are the top ones. These are very important. I think when folks think about product management, think about sort of the influencing without authority and

[29:55] and prioritization and being able to write for PREs, etc., all those things. [30:01] are sort of more top of mind [30:03] The listening and empathy, I wouldn't say that they are underrated. I think there is now a lot more recognition that these are sort of core skills if you want to be able to influence a lot without authority. [30:13] But I think it's easier said than done. You really have to come in with that growth mindset, with that beginner's mindset, be able to absorb and just learn and listen and don't jump in with ideas necessarily. Right? [30:28] take the time to formulate that opinion. [30:31] to really learn and understand the customer and the market. [30:34] And really be true to that tenet of working backwards from the customer problem, not just, you know, say because it's become such a... [30:41] platitude now in the product world. Yeah, there's a book. There's a whole book called Working Backwards Now. That is the one thing that I would say that [30:48] That's somebody starting out as a product manager, you know, [30:52] really try to follow that principle and then listening and empathy is going to go a long way in terms of being able to [30:59] leave that. [31:00] On listening and empathy, what do you think helped you most develop those two skills? [31:06] So I think for me, part of it was just [31:09] Doing this. [31:10] over and over again in different environments, right? [31:14] in different product [31:16] launches that I've led in different types of companies that I've worked with in startup as well as big company right the dynamic is different right and again the [31:25] Um,

[31:26] the team that you're working with in different companies have different [31:31] Culture? [31:33] So, [31:34] then you're working with, let's say, an engineering leader, [31:37] you know, being able to understand [31:40] What are his or her constraints, right? Where is he or she coming from? What [31:44] What does impact look like to that person and then [31:48] understanding and then understanding where you're aligned, where you're not aligned, [31:51] or things that [31:53] you have to develop [31:54] and start paying a lot more. [31:56] attention to as you sort of rise in your career or go up the ladder. [31:59] And I think a lot of that for me came [32:03] came by just being in [32:04] different kind of situations and different kind of environments. [32:08] Yeah, that's what I often say also. A lot of this just comes from doing it again and again and again. There's not going to take a course and then just... [32:15] I'm a great listener. I'm done. It doesn't. Yeah, which is not easy to like, you know, it'd be nice if there was a book you read and then you become a great listener. I think one tip that I could [32:28] You know, share is... [32:31] is just challenging your own assumptions, right? So I think listening with an open mind, but then, you know, are you proactively trying to challenge your own assumptions? [32:41] is extremely important, right? As a beginner product manager, as well as a seasoned product leader, if you're not doing enough of that, [32:49] then I think you might not be listening well. [32:52] or you might not be [32:54] picking on the cues, then you're just

[32:57] If there is no conflict, if there is no contention, [33:00] then something is missing. It's not often you're going to be always right. [33:04] Maybe one more question along these lines. [33:07] You've been promoted many times. Now you're in a place where you promote people. [33:11] And I'm curious, for someone that maybe wants to get promoted, [33:15] or struggling to get promoted, what would you say are probably [33:19] the reasons they aren't or what do you think people should focus on if they want to just get a promotion and many promotions in their career? [33:28] I'm going to say something that might sound a little cheeky, right? But I think the way to get promoted is to not want it too badly. Right. It is about you have to focus on the impact. Right. It is it's about having an impact and then doing what is right for. [33:44] the business. [33:45] So not sort of, you know, optimizing things for your promotion, right? But, you know, we are all... [33:52] ambitious human beings and and [33:54] There's nothing wrong with wanting a promotion, just to be clear, right? There's nothing wrong with being ambitious, but... [34:01] But then focus on the impact, right? Are you working on the right things that will have the right outcome for the business? Because if you are, and if you are giving it your 100%, that will be visible. [34:11] And making your ambitions known to your manager, to your leader is a good thing, that you should. [34:18] then the right opportunity cons, [34:20] at least your leader or manager is aware that [34:24] "Hey, this person wanted to work on something more challenging, so maybe I put it in."

[34:28] put her on that project. [34:30] But you have to be focused on sort of really creating the right company impact for the company and not optimizing for yourself to get promoted. [34:37] If you try to maneuver that too much, you know, [34:40] it. [34:41] it becomes visible, right? And it's [34:43] It's not necessarily a positive signal to the organization when they can see that that's what you're trying to do. [34:50] and it also distracts you from [34:52] the things that you need to be focusing on. So, [34:55] I would say, you know, yeah, improve your skill set as a product manager, make sure that you're [35:00] that you made your vision on that you want to work on challenging high visibility projects or products right that really test or stretch your skills [35:08] and then be really dedicated to that cause and work on what [35:12] has a business impact for the company, right? Do the right things. [35:16] I really like that advice. 100% agree with all of that. [35:19] I have a couple final Waymo questions, and then we're going to get to our very exciting lightning round. [35:23] Yeah, just to kind of for folks that maybe want to try out way more. So maybe just like where's it live now? When do you think it'll roll out to new cities? And then how do people... [35:33] try it and use it if they live in one of the cities, if that's possible. [35:37] We are already in Phoenix metro area and [35:41] in San Francisco. So in those cities, you can just go and download the app and you can use the service. [35:47] We have done initial... [35:49] fully autonomous testing in LA and we're going to be expanding in LA through the rest of the year. [35:53] So stay tuned for more development on that front. And then we do have a list of cities that we're going to be rolling out in the coming years. But unfortunately, I can't share that list just as yet. And if someone lives in one of those cities, is there a way they could try to get on a wait list or try to use this stuff? Or is it?

[36:09] Is it like closed doors right now? [36:11] So it is open doors in San Francisco and Phoenix. Got it. So you just sign up and you get on a wait list and then you make it off. [36:17] In Phoenix, I don't even think that there is a waitlist. Oh, wow. You've got to move to Phoenix. [36:23] That's cool. Or just wait just a little while in San Francisco. But yeah, Felix is great. If you want to move there, that's [36:32] I'm going to start packing tonight. [36:35] Just joking. [36:36] Anything else you want to touch on before we get to our very exciting lightning round? [36:40] No, I think we talked about a bunch of things. It's been a great conversation so far. It's not over yet. We've reached our very exciting lightning round. I have six questions for you. I'm ready. [36:51] Bring it on. Okay, here we go. What are two or three books that you recommended most to other people? [36:58] crossing the chasm by Jeffrey Moore and [37:01] Clayton Christensen's Innovator's Dillamar are still sort of the two classics in product management that I [37:09] have quoted a lot and I have recommended to many folks. [37:12] Awesome. I've got both in my little bookshelf behind me. Yeah, me too. What's a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed? [37:19] I have an eight-year-old daughter, so my viewing choices are very much influenced by what she watches. [37:25] But let's see. [37:29] Yeah, I did enjoy the Top Gun, the new Top Gun movie, Top Gun Maverick, quite a bit. We watched it in the theater and the visuals were just fantastic. [37:38] I think it was also inspiring to see what Tom Cruise was able to do at the

[37:43] It's quite a feat that he pulled off at this age. Absolutely. Yeah. [37:47] It was very inspirational. [37:49] Fully agree. [37:50] Favorite interview question that you like to ask people? [37:53] Yeah, especially at the senior levels, I always ask them when it was one time that you failed and what did you learn from it? I've seen that folks who are, you know, who's, [38:05] either or say that then [38:07] they've never failed or they're trying to guys success story or the failure story are usually either disingenuous or have not had the depth of experience. [38:16] So I asked that question and I'm looking for some real solid examples there. [38:21] Awesome. [38:22] What's a favorite recent product that you've discovered that you love? [38:27] I wouldn't say that I recently discovered it. It's on my wish list to buy very soon. I look, I'm all for sustainable mobility, so I am shopping for a foldable e-bike. [38:40] So I can do more mountain biking without doing mountain biking. [38:44] That's the sustainable part for me, I guess. [38:47] Is there a specific model or brand that you are most excited about? I would take recommendations from you, but I'm still shopping. I think Electric, there [38:56] All right. If folks have recommendations, leave suggestions in the comments. Me too. And what's something relatively minor you've changed in your team's product development process that you've found has had a tremendous impact? [39:09] I wouldn't say that this is a product development process, you know, although we...

[39:14] different parts of my career, I've definitely instituted [39:19] different types of processes and tools that have held. [39:21] improve the product development but I would give you some an interesting one that I [39:25] used a lot in my prior company and then I use a different form of thing here at BMO, is what I used to call as the rule of seven. [39:33] If they're having seven emails, [39:35] in an email thread and you still haven't resolved the issue, [39:38] Just call the person. [39:39] or get in a room, huddle, [39:41] Resolve it. Life. [39:43] But you know, the long email exchanges that [39:47] don't converge and go anywhere. I feel are a waste of time for many people. So I'm like, you know, you've got a limit. Bama's a bigger company, so the limit's more like 10. But if you haven't resolved something, [39:58] within an X number of emails. Please just [40:01] Get on a call, get in a room and get a result. [40:04] I love that. And the idea is, [40:06] It's seven if it's like you and that person going back and forth seven times. Yeah. Or a couple of people just going back and forth and, um, [40:13] And then, you know, and adding more people and then adding more people and they're like, [40:17] Everybody chimes in, but where is this thing really headed? [40:21] I love that. [40:22] Final question, if anyone gets to write in a Waymo, what's a pro tip for them to have a [40:27] Awesome experience. [40:29] Bring your favorite playlist. [40:31] Sit back and enjoy the ride. [40:34] Great. When I was on my right, I turned on some jazz, and it was raining outside. It was real cozy. Did you actually do it on the... So there's a feature. If you have the Google, you have to download the Google Assistant, but you can actually play your playlist in the car.

[40:49] That's cool. I chose a station that was in there of just jazz music. Okay, yeah. Yeah, okay, this is great. All right, hopefully I get another ride someday. Yes, you should. [40:57] Shweta, this was amazing. I'm going to start packing my bags for Phoenix. I'm going to sell my car. Everything's going to change. [41:04] Exactly what we wish for. There's your KPI. [41:09] Thank you again for being here. Two final questions. Where can folks find you online if they want to learn more, reach out, ask you maybe some questions. [41:15] Maybe apply to join Waymo if you're hiring. [41:18] And how can listeners be useful to you? [41:20] You can find me on LinkedIn. [41:22] and then if you are interested in opportunities at Waymo, go to Waymo Careers.net page. You should see all the open positions. [41:28] It's okay for you to reach out to me on LinkedIn as well for product management roles. [41:33] How can listeners be useful to me? [41:35] I would say, hey, sign up for the ride in Phoenix or San Francisco and LA when we open up. Give us feedback. [41:44] Awesome. Shreta, thank you again for being here. [41:47] Thank you. It was great to have this conversation. [41:51] Bye, everyone.