#2503 - Eric Weinstein

[00:00] the joe rogan experience train by day joe rogan podcast by night all day um i was like there's only one way to do this i've just not drank for a while [00:17] So I took like eight months off and then I had like a margarita dinner once. I was like, oh, I missed this. [00:21] And then I had a glass of wine here and there. I was wondering how that was going to hold up. Yeah. But I know that you're not captured by it. No, no, no. Neither am I, but our religious observance requires it. [00:33] You require abstinence or drinking? No, we drink. When do you have to drink? Shabbat. Any Friday. How much do you drink when Shabbat? [00:43] I probably have two and a half glasses of wine. Is there like a number that you're supposed to hit? No, there's a communal puppet to be. What? Well, that's Purim. Purim. [00:51] We should get into Purim. We're getting into it. All right. Do we need glasses? You want to have a drink? [00:56] Usually I tend to go a while, so we usually do that at the end. Well, let's get some ice and some glasses. Are we rolling already? I've been rolling, yeah. Okay. Oh, shit. Tell Jeff to get us some ice and some glasses. I didn't know we were. And a bottle of Buffalo Trace. [01:11] Do you want to wait until I get back to start? [01:14] We either haven't started or we start [01:15] We started. Fuck it. [01:17] We started. Let's just roll. We'll get Jeff to do it. [01:20] I saw. [01:21] What's that? I don't even have headphones. Are we rolling still? Are we doing headphone shit? We can. Headphones, no headphones. I don't give a fuck. We mix it up. Okay. You know? Are you more comfortable? You've got a nice head of hair. What? For me, it doesn't matter. I feel bad when people work on their hair real good, especially ladies. Ladies.

[01:37] And they get it all nice, and then they have to fucking smush it with this thing? Okay, if you ever have that kind of consideration for me, I'm going to be very disappointed. I thought we were closer. Some people worry about that. I worry about the gray thing. [01:50] That you have gray in your hair? Yeah. Well, you're pretty dark for your age. How old do you now? Sixty. [01:57] Yeah, you have fucking dark ass hair for your age. If I had hair and it grew out, like my side hair, it's mostly gray now. [02:05] Yeah? Yeah. [02:06] I should have thought ahead like you did. [02:11] What, shaved it? Yeah, shaved it when everyone knew it wasn't gray, and then it's just normal. Because it's very clear if I shave it now. I think you can avoid gray hair with proper supplementation. At least that is the thought today, that with enough zinc and copper... [02:28] And that somehow or another that's involved in the diet. I'm talking out of my ass here. I don't know that much about what causes your hair to go gray. This is Austin Tapp. This is Buffalo Trace, older than America. Really? Yeah. This is a distillery from 1773, I believe they started. [02:50] Wow. Them apples. Huh? It's like that Chinese sounding beer. Yunling or something. Cheers, my friend. [02:56] Buffalo Trace is like, why is their beard really old? Beer really old? [03:04] Do they have an old beard?

[03:08] Is it old as fuck? Jamie knows everything. He knows a lot. You know, people... 1829. You see? [03:15] People say, I have this AI, I'm using Claude, I'm using ChatGPT. I use Jamie. Jamie, for sure. He's way better than AI. He's way better than AI because he's kind of psychic. [03:25] You're a little psychic, right? A little bit. Well, I mean, I've listened to you talk a lot. My theory is that he also looks ahead. He knows sort of where you're likely to head, so he's got it ready. Oh, 100%. He knows how my goofy fucking brain works. Yeah. For sure. [03:41] Good to see you, my brother. Good to see you. Hello, Joe. How was your – what was it exactly? How would you describe it? A speech? A presentation? I gave a talk on dark energy. [03:53] to the Karch Group at the Utexas Austin Physics Department. This is what I wanted to ask you about. Michio Kaku has been saying that he believes that dark energy is possibly something leaking in from another dimension. [04:06] Look at that face. Look at that face. [04:12] Go on. You gave a little side eye. Well, let's see what he says. James, see if you can find that, please. I think he said it was gravity leaking. He took hands from different colonies and put them together as a kid just to see what happens. [04:26] Did I? No, I never did that. I did that. Oh, why? Just watch him fight? Oh, yeah. Oh, you fucking psycho. Yeah, a little bit. No, I never did any of that. You were saying about Michio. Yeah, I didn't even read it. I just saw it and went, oh, Jesus, I've got to talk to Eric about this.

[04:43] Michio says dark matter isn't matter at all. It's gravity leaking in from a parallel dimension. [04:50] And this guy won't do mushrooms. Isn't that wild? [04:53] I [04:54] Yeah. [04:56] What do you think about that? Do you remember when I was here and I said... [04:59] Get Michio Kaku in here with me. Yeah. What is it about? Well, clearly he's a brilliant guy. He is and was a brilliant guy. He's decided to do something else. And to be entirely honest, I don't love going after other people. [05:15] named people. In general, my shtick is that I go hard after institutions. I'm a huge institutional supporter and their worst nightmare in the current world. Individuals I don't like beefing with. I watch all of the energy... [05:30] The beauty of life lost to beefing with people. Michio Kock is doing a tremendous amount of damage to theoretical physics. How so? [05:39] Um... [05:41] Okay. [05:43] Theoretical physics is, in my estimation, the most beautiful, most powerful, most economically potent thing you can do with your life. [05:51] And we are the best people. [05:54] The United States is, in my opinion, the greatest nation in the history of the earth for theoretical physics. [06:00] Because we are cowboys, we are irreverent. [06:04] we are the, [06:05] We are the people who invented the atomic and hydrogen bombs, the semiconductor. [06:10] uh... [06:12] This is what we do, and we've lost the ability to do it.

[06:17] at a level that I cannot believe happened during my watch, my lifetime. So from 1984, [06:25] to the present. [06:26] Those 42 years have been the greatest... [06:29] intellectual... [06:31] implosion, I think. [06:33] that I know of where people just got dumber. And what do you think is the cause of that? I'm going to distract this humidity. Quantum gravity. Quantum gravity? Yep. [06:43] Mm-hmm. [06:43] Thank you. [06:44] In 1984, there was a result. [06:47] And it's called the Green Schwartz Anomaly Cancellation. And the guy that I've talked to you about before in UFO context, the guy who is Lewis Witten's son, Lewis Witten. [06:59] Happy birthday. He turned 105. Was the anti-gravity guy from the 50s. His son, Edward Witten, [07:07] decided that the 1984 Green Schwartz anomaly cancellation meant that [07:13] We should all, all the smartest people should pile into one narrow subspecialty. [07:18] and that that was the future. [07:20] And because he was so much smarter than all of us. [07:23] people listened and I didn't and [07:26] Michio Kaku is part of his wave. Almost all of the people that you've traditionally had on in physics. [07:33] Thank you. [07:33] have some connection to this. So you've had on [07:37] I don't know, probably... [07:39] Sean Carroll [07:41] Neil deGrasse Tyson, Brian Greene. [07:46] Nobody wanted to say what was happening, which is that we were being unraveled and destroyed. Our ability...

[07:52] to be the world's greatest theoretical physicist was being [07:55] eroded year by year for 42 years. And specifically, the pursuit of string theory? [08:02] It's not string theory itself that's the problem. String theory is harmless. It's just a bunch of equations, a bunch of ideas, and it's beautiful mathematics in many places. [08:11] So, [08:13] That's not an issue. The issue is the exclusion of everything else. [08:19] Thank you. [08:20] This goes under the name Tojit, or the only game in town, T-O-G-I-T. And it's this idea that only we... [08:28] The Enlightened. [08:30] can do theoretical physics and the rest of you are just doing finger exercises and you're too stupid to know it. So specifically, what is... [08:40] What's isolationist about string theory? Like what is it about this one particular theory that all this thought has been pushed into that? [08:49] This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience is brought to you by Paramount+. UFC history is going down at the White House. It's the world's greatest fights on America's biggest stage. Watch UFC Freedom 250 at the White House live today only on Paramount+. [09:09] This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know –

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[11:27] is a registered trademark of FCA US LLC. [11:32] The claim is... [11:34] that there's this thing called... [11:37] UV complete physics. There's no way that we can have a discussion about that directly. If I could ask Jamie, could I impose upon you to call up on YouTube, Wheel of Fortune, [11:51] And then use, I've got a good feeling about this. [11:54] I can explain it to you. Wheel of Fortune. I've got a good feeling about this? I've got a good feeling about this. Okay. Is that an episode of Wheel of Fortune? It'll be over briefly. It's very, very quick. It's about a minute and a half or something. [12:07] The key point is it's a tight analogy for the problem faced in physics that anyone can understand. So I don't – people think I try to make things complicated. I really try to make them understandable. But what I do is I talk about things – [12:19] I don't know that you've ever had anyone talk about UV completeness on the Joe Rogan. I don't believe so. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, put your headphones on. Yeah. [12:27] Well, you're not going to be able to hear it unless you have headphones on. [12:30] I know it like the back of my hand. [12:33] Wheel of Fortune. We need a phrase this time. That's a category for this puzzle. And it is a prize puzzle. [12:43] Go ahead, Rick. Gladly. [12:54] And what do we get here? 500. R. R.

[12:57] Boy, you'd think there'd be an R in there somewhere, wouldn't you? Oh, man. Obviously, you called it. Caitlin. [13:08] Al! [13:10] - One L. [13:15] - Did you really solve? - Hmm. - What's that? - Can I solve? [13:20] Okay. It is a prize puzzle. Yeah. [13:22] I've got a good feeling about this. [13:25] That's right. That's insane. That lady's a wizard. [13:32] That lady is what I want to do with my life. That is what great physics looks like. It's totally irresponsible. Yeah. [13:40] And, you know, Pat Sajak is like trying to [13:43] ask her, like, how'd you do that? And she says, well, I had a good feeling about this. You know, and the funny part about it is you can figure it out. If you go back, Jamie, can you show the board right there? Yeah. So clearly that apostrophe... [13:58] is a huge clue, right? So the idea is that if you read that property, is that I'll... [14:04] Is it I've? [14:06] Right. And then there's no R. So, [14:11] Think about all of those blank squares as orders of magnitude that you are away from the energies that would allow you to do experiments that would explain physics. And think about the apostrophe, the L, and that pattern. [14:23] as well as the fact that there's no R as the standard model of physics.

[14:29] So right now, what you have is a debate about whether or not we should buy more and more letters with higher and higher energy. [14:36] Or should we build bigger accelerators and spend more treasure on it? [14:40] trying to collide particles? Or should we just caitlin our way out of this? [14:45] So Caitlin Burke is my model of what I think we're supposed to be doing. So an exceptional mind with an ability to see or propose things that other people aren't seeing. [14:57] I guarantee you that if we studied this, if we spent a month with the world's smartest people on this puzzle, we'd learn that there are certain things happening. [15:06] that were present, that [15:08] you know, the frequency of certain, the fact that there's a single letter there that almost certainly is I or A. She took a tiny number of clues. [15:17] But here's the really important thing. Jamie, can we show the filled-in puzzle? [15:25] you [15:27] So, [15:28] You'll notice that the word this could be changed to that because the only letter that's been excluded is an R. Right. [15:36] So that is what the issue of unique UV completion is. In other words, a unique UV completion would say there's only one phrase that fits there. She guessed. She couldn't have known it isn't. I've got a good feeling about that or I've got a nice feeling about that. [15:53] about this or that. So it's actually not [15:57] Um... [15:58] or I'll get a good feeling about this, but all of those were much less probable.

[16:03] because [16:05] They're just not as natural. So this is a combination of science [16:10] guesswork [16:12] And raw courage. Like the most marvelous thing about that exchange is she says, can I solve? [16:19] And there's like... [16:20] He's not even sure he's hearing her properly. [16:22] And then finally he says, okay, that's gatekeeping. Can I put this article on the archive? Can I give a seminar in your department? [16:31] I want to solve the puzzle. [16:32] And a lot of what we're arguing about is that the string theorists are the only ones who have the right [16:39] to try to solve the puzzle. [16:42] at the moment. So imagine that somehow there's a rule that only Rick, poor Rick, who guesses that there's an R... [16:48] Imagine that he's the only one allowed to solve the puzzle, and when she asks, may I solve the puzzle? [16:54] No, no, no, you can't. That's pseudoscience. You're a charlatan. That is crank physics. So that's what the problem that we're facing is, is that we've got one group that got control of the gatekeeping. [17:11] who is very good at mathematics, [17:14] extremely bad at physics. [17:17] and they've redefined what physics is and what good science is, where they're the only ones who are guessing the puzzle. They can't guess the puzzle. [17:25] And everyone else is like, here's a crazy story from yesterday. [17:30] I wasn't allowed to say that I gave a talk in the physics department, even though...

[17:34] Thank you. [17:35] Any normal person would say, [17:36] that that happened. And I wasn't allowed to do that when I visited a physics institution in Canada. I wasn't allowed to say that I was visiting for a week. [17:46] Nor was I allowed to say that I gave a seminar that lasted nine hours. But you just did. Yeah. [17:51] Are you a lawbreaker? I'm breaking the rules now because now I've had it. [17:57] I agreed to not do this. And with these missing scientists, I've changed my mind. [18:04] it [18:06] I'm not going to deal with these people anymore. And whatever is going on with science and the suppression of different ideas, [18:14] is terrifying. [18:18] Right now we have a situation. I gave a talk at the University of Chicago. There's no record of it. [18:23] Who's asking you to do these talks and who's asking you to not give a record? You don't have to name names. Yeah, particular people. In general, the funny part is that the people who ask me to give talks in the physics departments – [18:36] are the most courageous person in each department. [18:39] Thank you. [18:41] So the problem is that the person that you end up feeling resentful towards, how dare you tell me that I can't give this talk in this department officially? [18:49] is the person who's arranging for your stay. [18:51] Thank you. [18:53] and is arranging for the room, and they are under the most pressure from the institution. So the institution is forcing them to say... [19:02] So you're allowed to give the talk, but you're not allowed to talk about it on social media. You're not allowed to advertise that you're doing it. You're not allowed to say that you're doing it. So in this case, in the case of UTex's physics department, I was allowed to say I'm speaking in the Karch Group seminar. It's like a condom to make sure that the physics department doesn't get pregnant.

[19:32] other universities. Oh, it's much more insane than that. This was the home of Steven Weinberg, who moved from Harvard to Texas because the money, the oil money, was used to buy brains. So [19:43] And basically, Texas raided Harvard for people like John Tate in the math department, Stephen Weinberg, who was probably the greatest living theorist. And that was the continuation of the Bryce DeWitt group from North Carolina Chapel Hill that was set up to do anti-gravity by Agnew Bainson. So you're right next to... [20:04] an amazing physics department, [20:07] with a crazy history [20:09] that in fact touched anti-gravity. [20:12] This is one of the... [20:14] tiny number of places that has a real legacy in that department. [20:18] And I was speaking there on Gravity. [20:21] On dark energy. [20:24] And... [20:27] Look, I've been lying my whole life about my relationship with the physics world because of this pressure. They can't listen to me if I say I'm a physicist. So I say I'm an entertainer. [20:38] Thank you. [20:39] Yeah. But people say, well, why would you do that? Why would you say that you're an entertainer when you obviously... [20:45] are conversant in all this stuff. And the answer is, I don't want to die. [20:49] I don't want to lose my ability to enter a physics department. So I take on this completely wrong persona. And, you know, I have the e-mails. [20:57] You're not giving a talk. You're having conversations in room 5308.

[21:02] It literally says you're not giving a talk? I could read what it is that they write to me. But what is the benefit of this formal declaration or this formal designation of the way you're talking? So when I was at a physics institute in Canada – [21:17] I was told, we're worried that you're going to use it to legitimize yourself. It's like, I'm going to do that. Of course I'm going. I have a PhD from Harvard, you stupid... [21:30] I mean, like... [21:32] You guys imagine I'm a podcast guest? [21:36] This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Once you've got a great name for your business, you need a great domain. And Squarespace makes it easy to lock in a domain. You just search the name you want, buy it, and then you're ready to build. No hidden fees, no weird upsells. Go to squarespace.com slash Rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the code Rogan to get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. [22:06] Right, just a regular dude with some wacky ideas. Right. And so the idea is I have to play that character as opposed to... Legitimizing yourself is a very bizarre phrase. Tell me about it. Because it's assuming that you're not legitimate. Do you know what I'm saying? I don't think you're understanding this. No, I am understanding it. But from their perspective, saying that you're going to use it to legitimize yourself and your ideas is a really crazy way to phrase it.

[22:34] Because they're acting from the assumption that you're not legitimate. So that's – they're – [22:39] You remember when, like, I think Reagan thought, I forget who it was, Reagan thought there were recallable missiles. [22:45] What, you could turn them around? Right. Sorry, we changed our mind. So. Like a base jumper who's also a suicide jumper. [22:54] On second thought. Halfway through. Halfway in, he's like, oh, fuck this. No, I like cheesecake. Yeah, a lot of these people who survive jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge, they learn, like, I love life. Yes, yes, most of them. They're reborn. Yeah. So what I would say is. [23:09] The problem is that I am... [23:11] I don't, I don't, this is not a boast. As you know, I don't, [23:16] usually put my credential first. I'm probably the most... [23:20] blue chip [23:21] defector from the institutions, mutant, mutineer, let's put it, call it that. [23:27] Um... [23:27] I have essentially perfect credentials. [23:31] And that's the problem. [23:33] So it's not a question about you're going to legitimize. I already legitimized myself by saying, [23:39] Thank you. [23:39] Harvard PhD, MIT postdoc, NSF postdoctoral fellow, ONR top in the country, Sloan Foundation grantee. I've been in math, physics, economics departments. I'm so bulletproof. [23:51] So that's the problem. That's the problem. That's the problem. It's not that you're a kook. That's what I was trying to say. You didn't understand. No, I do understand. I just don't understand why they want to do that to you. That's what's bizarre. Okay. I am the greatest danger.

[24:06] to the narrative. [24:08] I'm the most followed mathematician, [24:11] in the United States. Maybe the world, Hanna Fry, maybe... [24:15] above it. That danger to the narrative... [24:19] Yeah. [24:30] that they are so hesitant to platform. Yeah. [24:35] Or legitimize or why you're such a danger. Okay. So in 2001 – [24:40] I said mortgage-backed securities were a great danger to the world. I had one of the first published papers on the danger of the pricing of illiquid securities. [24:50] I went on Chris Williamson's show, and he asked me who's going to win, Biden or Trump. [24:55] Trump, I said, you don't even know whether Biden's going to make it to November. [24:59] People, representatives of the Democrat Party reached out to me and said, stop talking about Biden's dementia. You need your affirmation that you're seeing something real. We've put in three people as a committee to replace the president. And I said, like, I'm supposed to feel good about that. [25:17] So... [25:17] What, they told you? Yeah. They put in three people? They put in a committee of three people, and if you knew who those people were, you'd be pleased as punch, so shut up. [25:26] That's what they said to you? Yeah, correct. [25:28] You would be really happy, so shut up? Yeah. They didn't even tell you who the people were? [25:33] I think that they did, and I've conveniently forgot them. One of them might have been the chief of staff.

[25:40] Wow. [25:42] But I say this, right? And I'm not trying to... [25:47] I mean, I keep lots of secrets that people ask me to keep that I should keep, things having to do with national security, for example. But these people are incompetent. [25:58] And they're a danger to us. And right now, the string theory narrative is a complete danger. It's not string theory that's the problem. It's the only game in town. And so, you know, there was a... [26:10] who [26:11] Look, people are willing to spend their entire credibility – [26:17] just to make me go away. Could you briefly just describe like what... [26:22] So there's not a problem with string theory, or is string theory not complete, or has string theory reaped actual results? Mathematically, it's reaped results, and string theorists have occasionally... [26:36] done really great work in a subject called quantum field theory. But quantum field theory isn't about the quantum field theory of the world. [26:45] Quantum field theory is like calculus. It's some... [26:47] thing that's very useful and it grew up in physics but we've now found out that quantum field theory has to do with pure problems in mathematics that have nothing to do with physics and what they haven't done is they haven't dealt with the physical world so if you take physics why do we care about physics so much more than really almost any other aspect of the sciences other than biology [27:09] Thank you.

[27:11] Thank you. [27:12] I had to give a talk at the New York Deep Tech Week. Shout out to those guys. And I put it on the [27:18] Slide is three things. There's boom, vroom, and zoom. Easy to remember. Boom is weapons. Physics will create weapons. [27:29] dwarf everything else, with the possible exception of biologicals. [27:34] . [27:35] Uh, [27:36] Zoom, vroom, is energy. [27:39] And the story of energy is basically the story of prosperity and control. If you look at wealth and the amount of fossil fuels burned, it's more or less like a one-to-one correlation as to which nations are rich and poor. [27:50] per capital. And [27:53] Zoom is everything else. It's propulsion. It's computation. [27:58] It's communication. [28:00] And those things, if you take them together... [28:04] more or less define the economy and the world order. Physics is... [28:09] the center of [28:11] What makes us... [28:14] modern humans. And... [28:17] It became too dangerous in the 1950s. [28:21] Even the 40s, you know, atomic weapons are extremely bad, but they're not hydrogen bombs. [28:28] Somehow in November of '52, everything changed. [28:33] we became [28:34] We became too dangerous. The community of physicists is the most powerful group of people made into completely...

[28:42] ineffectual humans. [28:44] And do you think this is by design? Partially. [28:47] And what was the purpose of it? By saying that physicists became too dangerous, the ideas became too dangerous, is the idea that the weapons would become so immense and powerful? [28:59] That they had to do something to stop and curb that? Well, we didn't know how to control it, right? So in other words, for example, in the... [29:05] In 1940, we set up something called the Reference Committee, which I'm sure your listeners have never heard of. And the Reference Committee lived inside of the National Resource Council. Now, why was it important? Because chain reaction physics was so hot. [29:20] Once the neutron was found, right? So think about neutrons as bullets. They can go right into the middle of an atom because they're not positively charged, so they're not going to be repelled by the nucleus. And they can bust apart. [29:33] atoms that are barely being held together. [29:37] You get bullets, be getting bullets, be getting bullets, and that's what a chain reaction is. The people who were doing that in the 30s, [29:45] suddenly found that when they mailed off a paper to a journal... [29:48] if they weren't part of the secret group in Los Alamos... [29:52] Their paper got held up. [29:55] and sent back for revisions. [29:58] And there was no money in it. We secretly set up this thing to shunt real research out. [30:04] into the National Resource Council. I think this was organized by a guy named Bright, B-R-E-I-B. [30:10] T and

[30:13] That was the beginning of this whole peer review control mechanism. And this control, do you think is this ego based that the people who are the gatekeepers want to remain in the position of. [30:23] We all want to survive, Joe. [30:25] I mean, this is a real problem. [30:27] So you and I can hate on the institutions all we want from the safety of the JRE, but... [30:33] What are you going to do when it becomes really, really easy? [30:37] for people to commit [30:39] Thank you. [30:40] Like mass murder. If you think about all the really bad mass, like the Vegas shooting that never really got sorted out, it's very hard to kill large numbers of people using things like bullets. [30:53] If you want to really kill a large number of people, you're going to go to biologicals and you're going to go to nuclear. And what happens when that becomes easy? Like maybe it's a lot easier to build these weapons than the way we currently do it. Right now, we're bottlenecked on things like centrifuges. And by the way, who knows what the next innovation in physics is going to bring? So I always say this thing about if you're not tracking everybody at my level, [31:19] What are you doing as an intelligence service? Is this part of your concern about the missing scientists? Yeah, of course. Yeah, so the missing scientist narrative, for people that aren't aware of it, I think they're up to 15 now, and a lot of people say that some of these connections are baseless and that some of them – We're not really up to 15. No. Okay, so what do you think we're actually up to? I don't know. Probably 15. [31:40] Five or six. But I saw someone online did a breakdown of it, and essentially they were saying that the odds of this being a coincidence are off the charts. That the people that are all involved in very specific types of technological research, different things that are top secret that all of these people either wind up missing. There's a lot of murder in math and physics, first of all. People don't really appreciate that.

[32:07] Thank you. [32:08] You know, the Unabomber was a famous Ph.D. mathematician. [32:12] He's a big story, though. There's a lot. Sure. There was a guy named Cantor who broke into David Rittenhouse Laboratories in the University of Pennsylvania, where I was an undergraduate and shot up a seminar. [32:25] um... [32:26] There was, you know, this situation in Iowa where a relative of mine got a seat in the physics department because somebody was killed by one of the graduate students. I think it became a movie like Dark Matter. [32:40] So there's an incredible amount of murder happening. [32:44] The ball-peen hammer killing of, what was it, Carl DeLue by... [32:51] Thank you. [32:51] Straleski at Stanford. So first of all, there's just a lot of death because mathematicians and physicists are somewhat close to unhinged. [33:01] And it's a really nasty, there's a lot of nasty culture, and sometimes it becomes violent. Why do you think they're close to unhinged? [33:10] You spend that much time in your head? [33:13] I'm amazed that I'm as well grounded as I am. No, seriously, you're just way out in the stratosphere. [33:20] I completely forget who I am, where I am, that I'm even a human being. When you're using your body as an instrument, as you do in combat sports and training, [33:30] You become a different thing. [33:32] You know. [33:33] You know that archery thing where you have to... [33:36] twist your arm. A lot of people don't know that they can do that initially. Like just a small thing like that. What are you talking about? Archery thing that you twist your arm?

[33:45] If you have an old-style bow... [33:47] You often get burned by the... Oh, you have to twist your arm like that so that you're not like this and get hit. But you don't see what you're saying. See, but then you twisted your wrist. You keep your wrist straight. I don't do that kind of archery. That's why I'm confused. Well, okay. Sorry. You do real... This kind. Yeah. You keep your hand like that. Okay. [34:08] That's a torque issue. But if you're a sniper, there are all sorts of things about breathing and how you adjust your eyes. Right. [34:15] You use your body as an instrument as a mathematician or physicist. One of the reasons that I wish I were in better shape is that in order for me to keep my mind in a particular way, I have to not... [34:26] think constantly about suppressing food. You're doing a very unnatural thing. And... [34:35] That unnatural thing. [34:36] uh... [34:38] Not everybody can handle it. [34:39] Right. [34:41] I see what you're saying. And we snap. And also, our minds are more perfect. The messiness of the world and the perfection of our minds is at odds with each other. And... [34:51] I love disappearing into math and physics because it's perfect. But how does that lead to violence? [34:56] you're upset because people are lying. You know, like the Unabomber had really interesting points. [35:05] He wasn't a dumb guy. He was really correctly, you know, he has an amazing story called Ship of Fools. I highly recommend anybody read it. Just the way Charles Manson's Look at Your Game, Girl is a great song.

[35:18] Thank you. [35:19] It's a great song. [35:21] Okay. Yeah. [35:25] We're not comfortable, in part, with coming back to the... [35:29] the half measures and the special pleading that sort of characterizes normal life. [35:35] So to get back to the missing scientist narrative... [35:39] Um... [35:40] I don't think there are 15 missing scientists in this data set. That's bullshit. [35:44] It seems like they're adding as many as they can. Yeah. They're trying to make connections that don't seem to. Don't do that. It's like the junkification of the UFO narrative. All of these narratives have a junk to them so that [35:57] And I believe a lot of the junk is affixed to the narrative so that those who want to follow the institutional instruction to ignore the fact that this is happening can point to the crappiness. [36:09] Right. And so that's the out. And the really difficult thing that you do and you do really well is you try to [36:17] piece together, okay, what's bullshit, what's real? [36:20] There's a lot of real in the UFO story and there's a lot of nonsense. There's a lot of real in the COVID story and a lot of nonsense. The same thing is true for physics. But physics is more dangerous. [36:30] And [36:32] The fact that we're not tracking [36:34] Like, I always wonder why they allow me to come on the... [36:37] GRE [36:38] Thank you. [36:39] And say stuff. [36:42] I know a lot of stuff that I don't know what it unlocks. [36:45] Well, it's easy to dismiss anybody who comes on here. Sure, but China is smarter. And by the way, the LLMs. I mean, look...

[36:52] There are a lot of threads here. [36:55] To get back to the physics, and I'm giving a talk tomorrow at the... [37:00] UTexas Austin on supporting science, math, and physics and renewing our commitment to it. [37:07] So [37:08] I don't want to give the impression that it isn't dangerous or that the gatekeeping is stupid. It's really important. [37:14] to do great gatekeeping around mathematics and physics. [37:17] It's cryptography, it's weaponry, it's propulsion, it's a sudden change in the world economy. [37:25] If you figured out how to do fusion, [37:29] It would have immediate [37:31] geopolitical results. So these specific scientists that are missing, whatever the number is, five, six, that you think are legitimate, what specifically are they working on that's so dangerous? Well, the fusion guy, obviously, is at MIT. Yeah. [37:47] is anybody who might, I don't know. Fusion isn't my thing. Plasma isn't my thing. Um... [37:54] But that is... [37:55] unquestionably dangerous if you imagine how much depends on oil.

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[40:03] the whole thing is in disarray because the people that are under him – [40:07] whatever people he has working with him aren't, [40:11] as fully immersed in it as he is that you can kind of like handicap a problem. [40:17] It's like let's say if there's – The top five people. It's an energy thing. Let's say if it's an energy thing. Let's say if someone has some new technology that's going to completely disrupt the fossil fuels industry. Right. And they go, listen, we can kill this fucking guy. And it's still coming down the pipe, but we'll delay it by 10 years and make $15 trillion. [40:35] So, [40:39] This is the question about the far right tail, like the extreme right tail of human intelligence and ability. And if you think about certain areas where you have a dominant figure... [40:49] Rodney Mullen in skateboarding, for example. What percentage of all tricks derive from Rodney Mullen? [40:57] You couldn't have stopped skateboarding, but you could certainly have held it back by getting to Rodney Mullen. Right. When it comes to, you know, guitar, the amount of impact that Jimi Hendrix and Eddie Van Halen had. [41:13] It's just wildly disproportionate. [41:16] You know, when I was doing my podcast, I was really excited to do Rodney Mullen and Eddie Van Halen together. I wanted to get them, you know, totally different sports. [41:27] Those two guys are sort of the same. They just created so much vocabulary you can't even imagine it. Eddie Van Halen doesn't get the credit he deserves either. Yeah.

[41:35] Oh, [41:36] Tell me, talk to me. Well, it's just Van Halen [41:40] became Van Hagar. [41:43] And it became a different kind of music. [41:47] And I think a lot of the original hardcore fans left, but I think it got more popular with Sammy Hagar, but it was a different kind of music. [41:58] And not that it's bad, but it's different. And then I think a lot of people just went, meh. [42:04] But, like, if you go, like, to... [42:07] You know, some of the big Van Halen with David. I think Van Halen with David Lee Roth in his prime was literally a perfect band. It was phenomenal. They were the shit when I was in high school. I mean, everybody had Van Halen on their notebooks. They made the VH. I remember it. They were awesome. And they were so good. And Eddie specifically could shred so hard. And some of those classic riffs. [42:35] I just don't think in the mainstream world he got the credit that he deserves. [42:41] I see it differently. Well, people mention Clapton, who, of course, is a great wizard. Always it's number one is Hendrix. Most people have Hendrix as number one because he was so revolutionary. Well, nobody's going to say Alan Holdsworth. [42:53] Yeah, I don't know who he is. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, my point is that... [42:59] David Lee Roth kept Eddie Van Halen from becoming Alan Holdsworth. [43:03] Thank you. [43:04] And...

[43:06] Who is Alan Holdsworth? Oh, it's interesting. Alan Holdsworth... [43:11] Like if you talk to your hot shit guitarist friends, [43:15] they will very often [43:17] Everybody will just pause and say, well, yeah, that's Alan Holdsworth. [43:20] Really? Yeah. [43:22] and [43:23] It's sort of like listening to a modem for normal human beings. [43:27] Right? That's why it's just not popular. So Eddie Van Halen was- Who did he play with? [43:33] I don't know, Alan Holdsworth. [43:35] Just by himself? Yeah. Okay. Can we just actually weirdly put Alan Holdsworth, just like choose something with it? Yeah, yeah, we'll listen to some of his music. We might have, we'll edit it out of the episode because otherwise we get dinged on YouTube. Okay, well I don't want you to, okay. But we'll play it, we'll play it, and then we'll just come right back to it. All right, let's do that. Give me something, Jamie. Was it, is there any specific song that you'd like? No, at all. It's all mind-melting. I'm just trying to see if he's got anything popular we might have known so I could... [43:59] attack tap into that but [44:01] I don't see nothing. [44:03] Like, is there a song that you like that you could recommend? [44:06] I just listen to a certain amount of it, and then I don't listen to it again. I'm not at that level where I need Alan Holdsworth. Okay. What does that mean? What does that mean? Thank you, Jamie. I'd rather see some guy flying through the air with his pants on fire than listen to Alan Holdsworth. Panama! [44:25] Okay, here we go. Live in Tokyo. 1984, live in Tokyo. Tokyo Dream. [44:31] See if you can use the histogram to figure out where the nerds are going.

[44:41] Histogram? Yeah, it shows you where people spend their time on a video. Oh, really? [44:48] I would go right into the middle of it or something. I'm already checking. What are you doing? [44:58] These concerts sell out? [45:01] right now. Put it in the middle, Jamie. [45:03] Music. [45:29] You've heard this before though? Yeah. Is that a bass? What is the other guitar I'm hearing? [45:36] Because that is not matching up with what that... [45:39] Bass player seems to be playing. Do you hear that extra guitar? [45:44] That's slower and off time. I don't know. [45:55] That's a bass, I think. It doesn't sound like it's playing. My guitarist friends would just salivate. [46:01] And I'll look at them. They need help. Stuck shit. I mean, no offense, but it's... [46:09] Can't be great. It sounds like jazz, right? So it's like jazz guitar. Like, there's no singing. I apologize, sir. Well, look. If I put on... If I... No more Jerry. I've had it.

[46:29] Oh, Jamie. [46:31] You were going to have so much nerd hate. I mean, I've got that every day. People will agree with me, too, I believe. Oh, 100%. More will agree with you. I'm on your camp. That was my point. I think David Lee Roth had some... [46:43] had some comment about if it weren't for me, the brothers would be playing biker bars in the Far Valley or something, you know. And so David Lee Roth came up with what we would call the syntactic sugar, the thing that made Van Halen. [46:57] Thank you. [46:58] fun and listenable and danceable. Like, dance the night away. Yeah. Just... [47:03] I didn't like Van Halen. I love that song. I never liked Van Halen. Oh, how dare you. Well, but I loved Eddie Van Halen. You didn't like Van Halen? [47:14] I didn't [47:15] I'm not even embarrassed about that. The one I'm embarrassed about, I completely dismissed ACDC in real time because I'm an idiot. [47:24] I've never been more wrong about something in my life. How did you dismiss ACDC? Good question. [47:31] They had a dumb thing going on with the school pants and the dirty deeds done dirt cheap. What a fucking song. What a great song. Well, you know, like musically, Hot for Teacher is an amazing composition. [47:44] Yeah. [47:44] unbelievable right but but it's the key thing that they figured out is making things marketable right right and that's david lee roth and i think it's david lee roth and he was so charismatic and did jumping splits

[48:00] Yeah, he was a maniac. Amazing. Amazing. And he had a... [48:03] A secret weakness for old-timey music. [48:06] Right. Right? Like Just a Gigolo, Ice Cream Man, all that kind of stuff. So he's like almost a throwback to 1930s, even earlier, vaudeville. He's an odd guy. Have you ever met him? [48:18] I've wanted [48:19] I've wanted to so badly. I'm so jealous. But I don't think you ever really get to him. [48:24] It's always the show. [48:27] Like in podcasts, it's a little, like I really enjoy talking to him, but it's a little odd. I've seen, I didn't love the way he was. [48:33] My feeling... Look, I would go the Jewish angle. I would connect to him based on shared cultural heritage. But... [48:40] what I think about Eddie. [48:42] . [48:44] is that Eddie wasn't just a guitarist. He was an electronics guy. He was a keyboard player. He was handsome as the day is long, [48:53] bursting with charisma. [48:56] And like you and I mostly don't know whether guys are good looking. I know Eddie Van Halen was good looking. [49:02] Tell me more. [49:03] He was the whole thing. Yeah, for sure. Right. Yeah. And so my feeling is, is that those two guys, [49:12] really [49:13] You know, it's one of those things where you have two guys in a band that... [49:17] both of them are one in a billion kind of people and they happen to meet. [49:23] I... [49:25] I'm happy to be wrong about Van Halen, but I didn't do it in real time. I came to it later. But I remember the first time I heard Van Halen won.

[49:32] I had the same... [49:34] mystical thing. What... [49:36] is that. [49:37] Nothing sounds like this. [49:40] I've almost never had that in music. The first time I heard Smells Like Teamed Spirit, what is that? There are these moments where something discontinuous happens. But you heard Ain't Talk About Love and That Never Got You? [49:54] No, Panama doesn't get me. Ain't talking about love. It's a fucking jam. [49:59] Ah. [50:01] When was the last time you listened to it? [50:04] This year? [50:06] And nothing? [50:07] It's not that. Well, okay. So part of the thing is, is that do you play an instrument? When you play an instrument. Yeah, that is a problem. Yeah, I don't play anything. You know, the thing about Eddie Van Halen is that he accepted the geometry of [50:22] of the neck. [50:23] of the guitar. And very often you see musicians say, I don't care what key it's in. I can figure out how to do anything. Eddie Van Halen didn't do that. He said, look, there's certain things that this thing makes possible. [50:35] And I'm going to accept the limitations of the instrument. [50:40] Thank you. [50:41] and figure out how to push it in all sorts of ways. Another quote of his that I just love is this thing about, um, [50:47] Thank you. [50:48] If it doesn't cry, weep, moan. [50:51] I don't care. [50:53] He wanted all of those noises. [50:57] And... [50:57] Figuring out how to get those noises, figuring out how to make the guitar into more. This is a thing that obsesses people like Jeff Beck or Roy Buchanan or Eddie Van Halen.

[51:07] where [51:09] They're just... [51:10] They're in some other space where it's no longer an instrument the way you and I see it. [51:18] you know [51:19] I've never wanted a whammy bar on my instrument until I saw Jeff Beck. [51:24] Do. [51:26] crazy stuff that just isn't possible. [51:29] Did I ever tell you I drove him around once? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had that car on air. [51:34] - Thank you. [51:35] Um... [51:37] You've never had Derek Trucks on the program, have you? Tedeschi Trucks? [51:41] Yeah. [51:42] No. [51:45] That guy is not a human. [51:48] Oh, he's amazing. Amazing. And has a bunch of different people sing songs. So, yeah, look, I care tremendously about the guitar. And the funny thing that I realized is that I stupidly mentioned guitars on JRE and I got sent. [52:04] amazing guitars. And I had, I had Jamie, Jamie, [52:07] a quad cortex. [52:10] I should have mentioned like Lamborghinis or like Jules or something. It doesn't work. I've mentioned all those things. Okay. But I became friends with like the greatest guitarists of our time. [52:21] and [52:22] They're all suffering. [52:24] Because nobody cares. And I heard, and I haven't seen it, that you had Marcus King on and talked about the death of rock. [52:32] Well, I talked about the death of rock before and Marcus reached out and that's why I had him on is like man rocks not dead We're doing it every fucking night. I was like, all right, come on, man. Let's talk I

[52:42] And did you get to the blues, which he excels at? Well, we mostly just were talking about just music in general in his life. And he's in it. Where did he give you a nice guitar? [52:51] Yeah, it's beautiful, right? He's a cool motherfucker. He's a cool guy. And he's super talented, too. Never met him. [52:57] Well, it's like these... [52:59] This is what my conversation was about. This is what prompted it, rather. When I was a kid, rock and roll music was the big popular music. 100%. It was all Rolling Stones, ACDC. These bands were huge. Zeppelin, they were fucking huge. They were the biggest bands. Right. [53:21] That's not the case anymore. That's right. [53:23] And that's weird. [53:24] And what I said is I don't understand how a music – [53:29] Genre that's so popular can stop being popular when it's still so good like when we have protect our parks and you know, we'll play free bird. We still go nuts for that guitar solo. What happened to free bird? [53:43] I'm pretty sure if you looked at Google's data, Freeberg was insane. [53:47] in [53:48] It went away for a long time. And then it got resurrected as a meme. [53:54] Because you can feel... [53:57] This insanely long intro. Just so luxurious. You can't believe anybody would put up with it anymore. It's two different songs. Right. Right. [54:07] Lord knows I can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then all of a sudden it becomes alive. Right? Fly high, free bird. Yeah. And then.

[54:16] Suddenly you're on fire. Yeah. Yeah. [54:19] It's just like you want to fly an American flag, you want to shoot lasers, whatever it is. That feeling... [54:26] I think went away. [54:28] And I think that Freebird, I'd love to see the data. It came back. [54:33] And in part, it was probably Trump and Elon. [54:38] And this re... [54:39] We're in a masculinity crisis world over, and the masculinity crisis... [54:45] originally killed Freebird and it brought it back. I think Freebird was brought back by Protect Our Parks. [54:52] Okay. You think so? I mean, Google Trends says it's never really gone away. [54:59] Wait, wait, wait, wait. What is... There's a peak in 2010. There's a peak around December 9th. Wait, wait, that's 20... A peak in 2010? That's weird. Something could have happened. We could look it up. I wonder what it was. It probably was in a movie. Yeah, it seems pretty steady. Well, the reason I said that is that [55:19] I would make this reference. [55:21] you used to be able to refer... [55:23] to Freebird, it was a meme. Right, right, right. Everybody knew it. Yeah, people would yell it out. And then there was a period of time where no young person had any clue what I was talking about. [55:32] And I know, oh, that's interesting. [55:34] Because they still knew Stairway to Heaven. If you remember these top 500 songs of all time. Yeah. And then it would always come down to the last two. And it would always be Freebird and Stairway to Heaven. [55:44] Those were invariantly. Right. Then suddenly nobody knew what Freebird was, and now everybody knows again.

[55:51] So I... [55:54] Yeah. [56:00] Well, is this Google Trends? Is that what that is now? Yeah. So it's just people looking up? I could even go like that's probably when they put the video on YouTube for the first time or it became available on Apple for the first time to download and it wasn't only on Napster or something like that. But to go back? [56:14] to the blues aspect of it. It's blues-based [56:18] rocked. [56:19] that feels like that thing that you and I relate to. [56:23] This episode is brought to you by Manscaped. Wondering what to get your dad on Father's Day? [56:30] The beard and dome bundle from Manscaped is a really solid option. I've been using their dome shaver for a while now, and the thing I like about it is how easy it makes everything. You don't have to think about it. It just glides over your head, gets everything clean, no weird patches, no going over the same spot ten times. Honestly, it's so much better than anything. [56:50] any of the other brands I've tried. And then there's the Beard Hedger. It's got this zoom wheel with 20 different length settings. It's built right in. So if you want to get your dad something he'll actually use, the Beard and Dome bundle for Manscaped is an easy pick. Get 15% off plus free shipping with the code ROGAN15 at manscaped.com. That's 15% off plus free shipping with code ROGAN15 at manscaped.com. [57:18] I'm really into the blues, but it's its own controversy, because when black audiences stopped showing up to blues shows, the performers got worse, because the audience was a huge part of...

[57:32] of the experience. [57:35] Can I tell you about this argument I got into with John Mayer about the blues? No. So I ran into John Mayer... [57:43] um, [57:44] Thank you. [57:45] San Vicente Bungalows. [57:48] I've been in awe of that guy intellectually. [57:51] When he talks about music, I get so much out of it. It's just very perceptive, very brilliant guy. [57:58] And so I was, you know, really excited to meet him. And we get into this discussion. [58:02] I said, you're like a huge Stevie Ray Vaughan fan. [58:05] And I said, I really don't get it. I like him. I think he's a great player, but I don't understand the focus. And he said, oh, I can explain that. He said, I came from the MTV generation and he was the blues packaged for us. [58:20] Like a genius guy for sure, but packaged for MTV. Mm-hmm. [58:25] He said, but blues isn't really... [58:28] Thank you. [58:30] I don't know. [58:31] Blues isn't a real musical form. It's an ingredient. Yeah. [58:35] I said, "What are you talking about?" [58:37] He says, well, you would never go to a blues show. [58:41] I said, I can't believe I'm saying this to John Mayer. [58:44] But I don't think you know what you're talking about. House of Blues. It's literally... [58:50] Well, he meant something. A bunch of different venues. So the thing is, is that I caught the end of black audiences – [58:57] like old black people, [58:59] listening to the blues and paying for it. So there's who pays and who plays. And black people are still paying for blues, but a lot of them aren't.

[59:07] are still playing blues, but a lot of them aren't [59:09] paying for it. So when I go, for example, to see Cadillac Zacks Maui Sugar Mill show every Monday night, I go occasionally in Tarzana. [59:19] It's like... [59:22] 70-year-old [59:23] and up white people. [59:26] hot chicks in their 80s and crop tops dancing. And [59:31] That's what it is now. It's like a really old crowd. [59:34] keeping this thing alive. And I can't understand it because it feels great, Joe. Right. And... [59:41] Thank you. [59:41] And that's the thing. It's just like, you know, Bonamassa, he does these cruises, keeping the blues alive. [59:48] My feeling is like, F that. [59:50] We've got to actually get... [59:54] people back into understanding what it is. So if you picture those huge bands in your youth, stop thinking, [1:00:01] thinking about the band on stage rocking out. [1:00:04] and pan in your mind into the audience. And what do you see? [1:00:09] Young people. [1:00:10] Young people. [1:00:12] What are they doing? [1:00:13] Dancing, having fun. They're dancing. [1:00:16] There's some... [1:00:16] There's some chick in a crop top on some guy's shoulders... [1:00:20] Rockin' out. [1:00:21] Freebird. [1:00:22] when [1:00:23] When hot chicks stop dancing to your music, it starts to enter its death throes. Damn. And that's true with jazz. [1:00:30] It's true with traditional R&B. [1:00:34] And it's true with the blues. It's true with rock. [1:00:36] And so the important thing, and I keep telling people, is that you have to get people dancing. Once you start becoming intellectual, like Alan Holdworth, nobody's dancing to Alan Holdworth.

[1:00:46] Maybe you are. [1:00:47] *laughs* [1:00:49] It's not my shit. You have no idea. I think he has a joke, Jamie. What do you think? [1:00:52] dude honestly you guys sound old as shit right now there's so much music and rock music in arenas right now that's selling out what is rock in arenas right now there's a bunch of bands I could sell like Bad Omens Beartooth Korn just posted a video in like Sao Paulo Brazil 50,000 people going crazy [1:01:11] Yeah, like Meshuggah. It's out there. Yeah. But it's not what you guys don't like it either. Yeah, but it's not the big popular music that it was when I was a kid. There's only five artists in the world that are popular all over the place right now. That's right. Because it's now micro. Right. Right, because there's too many bands. There's too much music. Too much content. The control of the institutions to tell us what we like. [1:01:36] has slipped. [1:01:39] Right. And so in part, you know, like it was our version of Paola that. [1:01:44] When I was growing up in LA, it was KMET and KLOS that determined, or KROQ. Those are the three stations that mattered. [1:01:54] And they told us, here's the offering, boys. [1:01:58] This is what's on tap. [1:02:00] Right now, are you into math core? Do you think that's it? It's the death of – because, wow, now that you're saying that, I'm thinking the death of radio and the death of rock and roll. [1:02:11] They sink. [1:02:14] Because radio really stopped being a thing.

[1:02:19] Early 2000s? [1:02:22] Early 2000s, radio stopped being a thing. Well, remember when LimeWire came through and everybody could get all the songs that they wanted. Right. That was an issue. But it felt like, if anything, I thought at the beginning when Metallica was railing and Lars Ulrich was railing against Napster, I'm like, these are just your fans. They're just your fans that are getting your music for free. Yep. You're going to have to adapt, but they still love you. And don't you make most of your money touring? I don't know. I don't know what the economics of it are, but they're going to change. This is a new thing. [1:02:52] markets. [1:02:54] you know, [1:02:55] Just in prog metal, there are so many different... [1:02:59] I understand, but... [1:03:01] What we're getting at is that... [1:03:03] the radio sort of dictated what became popular in a lot of ways. And now things become popular in more of a sense of a viral way. [1:03:13] Sure. Well, one thing is that these clips, if your clip gets picked up by TikTok and Instagram Reels, [1:03:20] That's some tiny fraction of a song is the... [1:03:24] catnip that leads everyone to your door [redacted address] but i i was uh hanging with misha mansoor who was making the jamie claim like you you got old grandpa and his point yeah the thing is i have at least the courage to hang out with actually cool people he said you know his point was you're just not even watching it [1:03:46] correctly. I said, what do you mean, Misha? He said...

[1:03:49] video games [1:03:51] The music in video games matters greatly. [1:03:54] much more than you imagine. And it's like totally right. [1:03:57] That makes sense. And so, you know, what we are thinking about in Get Off My Lawn, [1:04:04] mode is... [1:04:06] There was something lost and it hasn't been reborn anywhere. So that's the part that young Jamie is not getting correct. [1:04:13] Something was just lost. [1:04:15] Now, lots of new stuff sprouted up. [1:04:18] But like EDM and DJing is really where a lot of that, [1:04:22] dancing. [1:04:23] Hot chick energy went. [1:04:25] That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. [1:04:29] And that's where guys want to go, where the dancing hot chicks are. [1:04:33] I don't know. [1:04:34] They will follow anywhere. Right. Right? And, you know, that's the whole... [1:04:39] I was in... What's this, Jamie? This is EDC Vegas 2026. This is just the example of what you're saying. Is this electronic? Yeah. Yeah. This is like as big as it gets. If I look at the stage, look at all these lights. I wonder if Mali didn't exist, how much of this would be out there. Yeah. [1:04:54] I mean... [1:04:55] That's a good question, right? LSD didn't exist. How much of that music wouldn't have gotten big, too? Oh, a lot. Yeah. Yeah. [1:05:00] But yeah, this is where all the girls hang out. [1:05:02] Right. So I found myself in in Vegas. Except for Ella Langley and I was sort of. [1:05:07] antithesis [1:05:09] antithesis to that. What is Ella Langley? [1:05:12] What's that? She's the biggest country artist almost ever now. [1:05:16] First female with like two top [1:05:18] 100 songs ever. How am I so out of the loop? What is her big song? Oh, I know that song. That song's great. She's got another one now. And has she been around for a long time? Nope.

[1:05:29] It's pretty new. She's like 24, 25. And she's killing it. Murdering it. [1:05:33] Thank you. [1:05:34] So part of what's going on is there's no way to monitor. [1:05:38] Like even if you have really current [1:05:41] young people [1:05:42] They're monitoring a subset. [1:05:45] of what's going on. Nobody is tracking the whole thing. [1:05:47] Right [1:05:48] And why country, though? Why is country exploding the way it's exploding? Well, because we're all in a meaning crisis. If you think about the way in which... [1:05:57] Country music, for example, can develop a story through... [1:06:01] tropes very, very quickly. [1:06:05] and so in part [1:06:08] The idea is that story songs... [1:06:11] and a return... [1:06:13] Try that in a small town. [1:06:15] is transgressive. [1:06:18] Try that in a small town is a really powerful message. Right. You don't have to say a lot. And we all want the cowboy. We all want... [1:06:28] the girl at the county fair, you know, um, we just don't know how to get back to her. [1:06:34] Right. We don't want a wholesome existence. [1:06:37] You know? [1:06:39] I got a barbecue stain on my white T-shirt that's Tim McGraw, right? [1:06:45] She's killing it in that miniskirt, you know, heart. Don't forget something like that. Beautiful story. [1:06:51] very, very quickly told. [1:06:53] Thank you. [1:06:54] That's old now, but the point being... [1:06:57] Um,

[1:06:59] hip-hop [1:07:00] in its storytelling and the return to spoken word and poetry and the legacy of the talking blues. [1:07:07] That had a great run, spread worldwide. [1:07:11] You know, you talk about whites taking over. [1:07:13] What do you mean whites? Like Tamils? [1:07:15] Thank you. [1:07:16] And, you know, indigenous Peruvians have taken over hip-hop in their local sectors. So hip-hop was just this great platform that once... [1:07:27] Ah. [1:07:28] Every local culture figured out some version of that. [1:07:32] And I talk about... [1:07:33] When I entered Bollywood, there was a song... [1:07:38] You know, Mama, look, your child is being ruined. And it has this, like... [1:07:46] Hey, Mom. Hey, Dad. Don't moan and groan. Why don't you learn to live with the times and please leave us alone? [1:07:52] Which is every generation's message. Yeah, but it's like it's delivered in, you know, boogie, woogie, reggae, rap, rock and roll and bhangra. You know, and it's like trying to it was the first lame attempt at rap that I saw on a Bollywood film. [1:08:06] with Jackie Shroff. [1:08:08] They've all made it theirs. And so I was hanging out in India now with the DJ on his program, Untriggered. [1:08:17] Thank you. [1:08:17] And [1:08:20] It's changing the developing world. [1:08:23] at a level that rock and roll changed us. It was the music of liberation. John Mayer's point, of course, is that the guitar, the electric guitar, retains the stylistic characteristics of cars in the 1950s.

[1:08:37] And that thing was the twin experience of having a car and having a guitar was personal expression and liberation for American males in the 50s. [1:08:48] So, [1:08:50] Um... [1:08:51] Yeah, but I think a lot about our guitarist friends because they're suffering. The world's greatest guitarists are living today and nobody cares. [1:09:00] They all follow each other. The funny thing is if you start following these people on Instagram, as I do, [1:09:04] Thank you. [1:09:05] I look to see which of my friends are following the great guitarists. [1:09:10] And... [1:09:12] It's other great guitarists. It's none of my normal friends. [1:09:16] Like, how many of my normal friends know who Tim Henson is, a great Texas guitarist? [1:09:22] I do. This man. Do you? Yeah. [1:09:24] What kind of music? I can't even explain it. He pretty much invented a genre that only he mastered and can explain. It's like Tex-Mex. [1:09:36] melodic. [1:09:38] If I had a glass and I broke it, if I took Tex-Mex and I broke it on the ground and I reassembled it from different things, it's completely angular and an idea will last forever. [1:09:48] It's like a psychedelic thing where it'll last for... [1:09:51] five seconds and it'll be on to the next thing and it's just angular and fragmented and sewn together and beautiful and inspiring. Give me some jam. I have to play it for you because the drummer and bass player are also awesome, but it pretty much revolves around the guitar. And you see, the thing is that they're so tight with each other that, you know, a better example even than this would be this thing that they released called GOAT, which was the thing that put them on the map.

[1:10:17] um... [1:10:18] And... [1:10:21] That was great. Right? Let me hear a goat. Also, Tim is just like the loveliest human being. Oh, I watched him as a young boy. Boy, I was him before he got all the crazy neck tattoos. Oh. [1:10:30] well that's just broken out i don't know it's not tim is it they posted it this is this is a different different human [1:10:50] Let's hear the song. [1:10:53] I think that's someone posting a riff. That was their account. [1:10:56] I know, but maybe he just put it up there. [1:11:00] By the way, do you hear the Mexican influence? Yeah, definitely. So... [1:11:05] This is very unique. [1:11:07] Very unique sound. This is who I hang with. I love these guys. [1:11:10] This matters to me. [1:11:12] and [1:11:13] This is new, right? And just the way this... [1:11:16] Antoine de Potrain that's taking over the world is basically you hear the Middle East. [1:11:22] Um, but these guys are basically into microtones. If you take 24 beats, you can divide it by sixes. You can divide it by fours, uh, sixes. [1:11:31] So the mathematics of rhythm? [1:11:35] You know, the stuff that like only Vinnie Cagliuta was able to do before people are sort of getting hip to things that were happening on Oud are now happening on microtonal guitars. And what it is, as I see it, is like this violent birth of people bored by standard Western forms. And I'm for this.

[1:11:55] I'm not for all of the [1:11:58] slop that you know like young people are always into the coolest stuff no they're not there are lame times they're cool times there's really cool stuff happening now but it's it's [1:12:09] uh [1:12:09] it's the fact, particularly this Quebec kind of thing that, that broke out with these guys in costume. Um, [1:12:17] Huh? [1:12:19] You don't know this? Antoine de Poitrine, something like that. [1:12:23] There's some back costumes. Yeah. Look, you remember the residents who were this art group from San Francisco and nobody knew who they were. They would have giant eyeballs as heads and they would play completely insane things like Johnny Cash's ring of fire, but in angular, bizarre ways. I missed that too. Okay. [1:12:41] Did you miss it? I don't know where we're going. So Antoine de Poitrine is this thing. [1:12:47] that took over, which doesn't sound like anything. It's like that new thing. [1:12:52] so you know you [1:12:55] because [1:12:58] So look at that guitarist, Fred. Now.

[1:13:28] The mathematics... Okay, Jamie. The mathematics of this is that there's this freak fact, which is that if you take the octave, which is doubling a frequency... [1:13:38] you take the 12th root of it, break it into 12 semitones, and then take 19 of them stacked. 2 to the 19 over 12 is equal to 2.996 something. It's almost 3. And that means that you can force people into this quantized music, where you come up with this number 12, which is magical. [1:13:58] for number theory reasons. And you can fool the ear into thinking that 19 of these 12 [1:14:05] semitones is a complete tripling of frequency. Okay. [1:14:09] Thank you. [1:14:10] And because of that, we've been in even-tempered music since the time of Bach. And these guys are breaking us out together with Jacob Collier. [1:14:18] Why would you accept that as a prison? [1:14:21] And so how does stuff like this become popular? Is it just viral? Yeah. Because suddenly you see two guys in costumes that don't look anything like anything... [1:14:31] you know, making music, [1:14:34] There's a moment where it switches into six beats [1:14:38] per unit. [1:14:39] into four beats per unit because it's on a 24 cycle. And suddenly you just feel good. And also, if any of these guys get cocky, you can just swap them out. [1:14:49] put a mask on some new guy get him in there it's anti-egoic [1:14:57] Right. Right. So in part, you know, it's like Buckethead. Buckethead didn't want to be like you have trouble being Joe Rogan. I even have trouble being Eric Weinstein. I'm a fraction of a Joe Rogan. It's hard to be well known.

[1:15:10] And these guys are erasing themselves. And that idea of, you know, it's very funny. Tim Henson, I think, has a song called Ego Death with Steve Vai. [1:15:20] Um... [1:15:21] Ego death is really hot because people are racing themselves is what everybody isn't trying to do. [1:15:27] who's chasing clout. [1:15:29] Right. [1:15:31] And people like that. [1:15:33] Yeah, because it's a form for... [1:15:36] They don't just like that. They also don't mind if you're chasing clout and you say, [1:15:41] I'm chasing some clout. [1:15:42] Thank you. [1:15:44] Right. I'm trying to get that bag. So what they don't want is somebody saying, like Bill Gates. Right. I'm just looking out for humanity and global health. Exactly. [1:15:55] So what I'm doing, I'm engineering ticks so that they bite you and you get allergic to red meat, and I'm dropping them off from helicopters. [1:16:03] We're going to administer vaccines involuntarily through TICS. [1:16:08] Yeah, and mosquitoes. [1:16:10] Yeah. So all of this stuff really bothers people. It's the disingen... Well, it's also he doesn't have any friends. [1:16:17] And he can't get any pussy anymore because he keeps getting caught. He can get it. [1:16:24] But if we were smart, we'd feed that guy pussy. We did. Keep him happy. We did. We did. [1:16:30] I wasn't involved. Neither was I. Yeah, allegedly. Allegedly. [1:16:34] What do you mean allegedly? Just kidding. I didn't go to that island. You didn't? No. [1:16:39] No, you're one of the people that saw through him right away.

[1:16:42] No, but he offered me partnership. [1:16:45] And I didn't take it. [1:16:46] And I regretted that for a while. [1:16:48] Because you would have been, cha-ching! [1:16:51] This episode is brought to you by SimpliSafe. One thing you probably don't think about when you're planning the perfect summer getaway is protecting your home. But if disaster strikes, you want to be prepared. Even better, if it can be stopped before it happens. So check out SimpliSafe. They're the smarter option when it comes to home security because their systems help prevent and stop crime in real time before it starts. There's also no long-term contracts and no technician appointments. [1:17:21] custom system and set it up in one afternoon by yourself or even sooner. It's one of many reasons why millions of people continue to trust and use SimpliSafe. Everyone deserves to have peace of mind, which is why I'm happy to partner with SimpliSafe again and offer an exclusive discount. Right now you can get 50% off your new system by visiting simplisafe.com slash Rogan. That's half off at simplisafe.com slash Rogan. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. [1:17:51] This episode is brought to you by Blinds.com. Texas summers don't mess around with patio surfaces easily reaching 150 degrees. Hot enough to make your backyard feel like a punishment. And if your windows are bare, indoor temperatures can go up 20 degrees. Get ahead of it with custom solar shades for your den and your patio from Blinds.com. Whether you want to do it yourself or have a pro handle everything, they've got you covered.

[1:18:21] want but still have access to real design professionals. They'll even send free samples. Blinds.com has been doing this for 30 years and they back everything with a 100% satisfaction guarantee so you can order with confidence. Right now, my listeners can get an exclusive 40% off when you spend $500 or more at Blinds.com and use the promo code ROGAN40. Limited time offer, Blinds.com, promo code ROGAN40. Rules and restrictions apply. [1:18:51] I would have been made rich or deceased. Probably both. Probably both. [1:18:58] Yeah, a couple of times I've been offered real wealth and... [1:19:01] with crazy stuff, but the Epstein thing... [1:19:05] I don't know that I've actually said that on a podcast. Um, [1:19:09] Yeah, he offered me one. [1:19:10] partnership and the only condition was that I had to get rid of my existing partners. [1:19:15] Like I had to stab my partners in the back in order to become his partner. Oh, yeah. So he'd own you. [1:19:22] Yeah. It's like, show me that you're... I don't want to sidetrack this or I'll come back, but these two are 333-year-old aliens, time travelers. Yeah. So they cannot be easily replaced. Yes, they can. That's horseshit. Look, I'll make a prediction. If these guys haven't been unmasked, you're going to unmask these guys and you're going to find out that they've got Middle East and heritage. Well, please don't unmask them. They already unmasked Banksy. [1:19:46] Can't we have some fucking mysteries in this world, damn it? [1:19:49] I think they're cool. I like that music. That was fun. That was fun. I like viral things, too. I like things that just spread just from weirdness. You know, someone sends it to me. That's one of the things that I love about Spotify. If I'm listening to something weird, it'll suggest something weird.

[1:20:05] that I've never heard of before, bands I've never heard of before, and all of a sudden I click on it. The suggestion thing, that's how I get new music now. Or I use Shazam. I use Shazam if I'm at a pool hall or something, something cool comes on. I'm like, ooh, what is that? [1:20:20] See, I... [1:20:23] I do that, but then I end up in these ruts. [1:20:27] Like, for example, I really like songs that go between A minor and E major. And that is... So it just gives me more and more of them. Yeah, nerd. Nerd. [1:20:36] You're a music nerd. [1:20:38] Listen, that's your algorithm. There's nothing wrong with that. Okay. You're a mixed martial arts nerd. I am. I know. And also, there's a lot of things that are way more boring than that. Pool. [1:20:48] I watch professional pool probably three or four hours a day. [1:20:53] Yeah? Yeah. [1:20:55] That's how I escape. I escape in the geometry and the movements, the patterns. Dude, you should have seen the comedians in the physics department yesterday. Oh. It was hysterically funny. It must have been amazing. Duncan. Duncan and Kurt together. First of all, together, they are the fucking dynamic duo. They are such a good duo because they're both sarcastic and they're both heavily engaged in satire. They were so well behaved as far as they could. Yeah. But then – [1:21:21] um, [1:21:22] Thank you. [1:21:23] I don't know whether I can tell these stories. Tell these stories. Tell them. What happened? What did Kurt do? So part of the... Fuck, I love that guy. He's so awesome. I love that he's a real person. Whenever he comes into the Mothership Green Room, I'm like, yes, give me a dose. Oh, he got real. He gave me some wild anti-Israel stuff, I think. I couldn't tell whether it was pro or anti.

[1:21:49] So at the end, there was an experimentalist who was like, [1:21:53] parlor. I'll show you my etchings. No, no, no. Cryogenic giant vacuum tubes from hell or whatever. So we all went down there. And so we're in the basement of the physics department. You can tell the difference between the theory floor and the part where they actually do things. And these guys were just, you know, were effectively at [1:22:13] 77 degrees above absolute zero with conditions that only occur in deep space inside of this thing coated in tinfoil. So these guys are just cracking jokes about growing weed. And what happens if you put hydroponic weed in that chain? [1:22:32] But the other thing is that comedians are really... [1:22:37] They're really intellectual nerds. [1:22:39] And [1:22:39] A lot of them, not all of them. [1:22:41] Those two guys are, for sure. For sure. Yeah. And they really wanted to know, okay, what is it that you guys are doing down here, and how do I understand? The good ones are very curious. Well, Duncan's amazing. Very curious. Although he drew a completely pornographic. I know. He was making notes, yeah. Let me send it to Jamie, because Kurt sent it to me. This is the notes Duncan was taking during the physics. Because I'm, like, doing battle a little bit with the – there's one extremely smart string theorist in the audience named Jacques Disler. [1:23:11] almost all the interactions between Jock and myself were, we were both being very, [1:23:16] collegial but it was you know it was pretty pretty hot i sent it to you jim and uh and so he says while you were doing that i did a little sketch of you i can figure out your exact anatomy it's a gift well you need something like that that's the last talk he's ever coming to no no actually i was really trying to hook so he's taking notes

[1:23:42] Oh, no, please. Give me some volume. [1:23:45] Thank you, Joe. [1:23:55] Hey, guys, I got some other things to do this afternoon. It's been great. Okay. Bye. [1:24:08] Oh my god. [1:24:11] Oh, Jesus. But, yeah, I wanted... [1:24:14] Thank you. [1:24:15] uh, [1:24:16] C.P. Snow did this famous essay called The Two Cultures. [1:24:20] and it was about how [1:24:23] Literary intellectuals and scientific intellectuals used to be one group and then they moved apart. And so now we can't hear each other across the chasm. [1:24:32] I... [1:24:33] I really wanted to create a pipeline for... [1:24:36] of not the seven scientists we see on all of the podcasts, [1:24:42] But like... [1:24:44] Choose who you want to talk to who's doing cool shit. [1:24:46] Thank you. [1:24:48] The comedians belong in our science departments. [1:24:53] Otherwise, how are people going to know what's going on? There's funny shit happening. [1:24:58] Well, and by the way, the UFO thing that's now blowing up. [1:25:04] Thank you. [1:25:05] There's going to be some crazy science collision with the UFO narrative. There's no way of stopping it at this point. So you've turned a corner on this. Let's talk about that because I saw you on Jesse Michael's show and –

[1:25:17] You were talking about how just a few years ago you thought that the entire narrative was complete nonsense. [1:25:23] Probably five, six years ago by now. And what changed? [1:25:27] Um... [1:25:32] So [1:25:33] There was no way to explain... [1:25:36] So Jesse was going on and on about it. I said, Jesse, you're a smart guy. And... [1:25:42] I often would call him the back alley scholar. So he knew a lot of stuff... [1:25:49] that was sort of forbidden knowledge and [1:25:52] Thank you. [1:25:53] He wouldn't be quiet about it. [1:25:56] So I said, okay, I'm going to disabuse you of the idea that you're actually into something. And I realized very quickly, at a minimum, there is a massive problem. [1:26:05] denied. [1:26:07] program, like usually called a special access program, one or more. [1:26:12] There's no way to synchronize that number of people who've had experiences that are so similar. [1:26:17] and there was a lot of stuff that I couldn't make sense of. And what attracted me in a certain sense, um, [1:26:24] Thank you. [1:26:25] was I couldn't come up with any explanation so rare and [1:26:28] I usually have exactly the opposite problem, which is I come up with too many explanations. [1:26:34] I can't come up with a single explanation that makes sense of what I now know. And also the fact that the government outreached to me and to Sam Harris and to Lex Friedman. And, you know, there was this thing where these guys who checked out, [1:26:46] said there's going to be a massive disclosure and we need people to disseminate

[1:26:51] these things to the public and you have a share of the public. [1:26:55] who listens to you. And we need to get you informed so that you can help mediate the disclosure. [1:27:01] So what... [1:27:02] Prompted this change in narrative. [1:27:06] What's going on behind the government? Yeah. Yeah. [1:27:09] We don't know. We don't know. Look, we don't know what the thing or things is. [1:27:14] is are. [1:27:16] Yet. [1:27:17] And some of it is, again, so low quality that it's embarrassing to be seen with it. So my colleagues who don't want to take this seriously – [1:27:26] use that like okay so you're now on the little green men train [1:27:31] And I said, no, I'm on the special access program. There is for sure a special access program or programs available. [1:27:38] that [1:27:39] have UFO on the side of them that may or may not have aliens or craft or non-human intelligence in them. It may be that it's decoys. It may be, I don't know what it is. There's no way to deny that there's like a giant lump under the carpet. [1:27:53] And what prompted you to change your opinion and decide that there is some sort of a special access program? [1:28:02] When I started coming in contact with totally sober people from reasonable walks of life who would say the craziest things to me, and a lot of them checked and they didn't yet know each other. Like what kind of crazy things? Let me take somebody who's public. Brandon Fugel, for example. [1:28:20] uh, [1:28:21] Was it a dinner?

[1:28:23] where he started talking about being visited by a craft a few feet over his head that came over the mesa, and his head of security was catatonic standing in the back of a pickup truck. [1:28:35] unable to move. [1:28:37] and [1:28:38] It was just way too specific. [1:28:42] and a shared experience that multiple people had had. [1:28:46] And so the joke, of course, is that [1:28:50] uh, the secrets of skin Walker rants or, you know, whatever this is. Right. Um, [1:28:56] There's real stuff going on there. [1:28:58] And there's nonsense BS that the History Channel has packaged to come up with a salacious series. And one is funding the other. [1:29:08] So I don't know what that is, but like some of these injuries are real. [1:29:12] And, you know, yeah, like Gary Nolan talking about people reporting. [1:29:19] Gary Nolan told me a story that somebody had said that a ball of energy [1:29:24] Thank you. [1:29:25] would come and... [1:29:26] enter the body and [1:29:28] move around and then leave. [1:29:31] And he said, you know, the craziest thing is that when I inspected the tissue... [1:29:37] There was a path of necrosis that can't be explained. [1:29:41] like something that shows up on imaging. [1:29:44] Thank you. [1:29:45] And... [1:29:47] that's [1:29:48] Gary's a really smart, serious guy. I can check a lot of the things that he says scientifically. Why would he say something like that?

[1:29:55] . [1:29:56] I mean, I didn't see it myself, but... [1:29:58] Well, he's also done some very strange work on material science. Right. Where he's analyzed... [1:30:06] particles or little pieces of metal and alloys that have come from wreckages from the 1970s and 60s. Yeah, that I don't know the Providence. Like, he'll carry around a little... [1:30:17] thing and I'll show it to me I'll say you know you know there's no combination [1:30:21] materials and alloys that [1:30:24] that this matches, that we know how to produce. And I say, okay. It doesn't mean anything to me. Again, it's just, it's all... I have no... At this point, I have no primary... [1:30:35] Um, [1:30:35] contact. [1:30:37] with anything anomalous. I just have all sorts of secondary stuff. And by the way, the thing that you saw with the Jesse Michaels and American Alchemy [1:30:45] um... [1:30:47] Boy, did that get a response inside the government. [1:30:50] That particular episode. [1:30:51] How so? [1:30:52] I'm [1:30:53] I had a lot of people who had stopped talking to me. [1:30:56] about UFOs who suddenly... [1:30:59] You know, I had like eight calls immediately after it aired. [1:31:03] "Hey, Eric, just thought I'd catch up with you." And I was like, "Oh, okay." There was a huge discussion inside. And the first, without getting into particulars, the first official outreach. [1:31:15] Like really official outreach. [1:31:17] The checks. [1:31:18] Thank you. [1:31:19] in the wake of that episode. [1:31:21] And I'm not under any NDAs. Nobody's told me anything wrong. [1:31:24] that I can't discuss. That may change.

[1:31:27] Um... [1:31:28] Thank you. [1:31:29] One thing that's very... [1:31:31] clear to me is that when I hear something from many sources, I don't need to protect it anymore. It's already out. [1:31:38] Okay. [1:31:40] I have now heard the White Sands story from many sources. [1:31:44] This is the one where the crafts hovered over the base, shut down the nuclear program? Is that it? [1:31:52] Mm-hmm. [1:31:54] I'm just going to say what I can say that's fuzzed out that can't be traced to anybody. Okay. [1:31:59] Um... [1:32:01] I was very upset with the shutdown of the El Paso airspace. [1:32:06] That was recently. Yeah. It was supposed to be we had a problem with cartel drones. Right. Right. [1:32:12] I don't believe that. [1:32:13] Thank you. [1:32:14] I think Texas is another name for New Mexico. I think El Paso is a name for white sands. [1:32:19] Can we get a map of the United States that can focus on white sands in El Paso? [1:32:26] I think we have a problem that we've lost control of our airspace. [1:32:32] Do you think this was part of what happened in New Jersey as well? [1:32:35] Thank you. [1:32:37] I can't say... [1:32:39] as much because what I know [1:32:42] No. [1:32:43] What happened around New Jersey? [1:32:46] I don't have from as many sources that I feel comfortable. [1:32:50] saying that this is fuzzed out. [1:32:52] I can fuzz out [1:32:53] the El Paso store. Nobody has told me that El Paso was shut down because of the problem at White Sands.

[1:32:58] Okay. [1:32:59] People have said things about [1:33:01] New Jersey, that is. All right. [1:33:04] All right. So there's El Paso. El Paso here, White Sands, right above it. How far away is that? My guess is about an hour. [1:33:11] by driving? Yeah, let's see, it's probably 60, 70, 80 miles at most. Okay. [1:33:17] So I don't know what's going on, but my guess is... [1:33:23] Thank you. [1:33:24] So... [1:33:25] On Pierce Morgan, I said this thing, which is that New Mexico... [1:33:30] is the connector of the nuclear story, the Epstein story, and the UFO story. [1:33:35] They're all going to come together. [1:33:43] Thank you. [1:33:45] Remember when we were only talking about the island? Mm-hmm. [1:33:49] Thank you. [1:33:50] Thank you. [1:33:53] somehow [1:33:54] I think I was the first person to seize on this. There's this thing that isn't an interview, which is Steve Bannon trying to train Jeffrey Epstein how to respond to rehabilitate it. [1:34:04] Thank you. [1:34:05] And if you can find this, this is... I've seen it. Okay. It's very weird. So he says... [1:34:13] Um, [1:34:15] You want to know about why I got Zorro Ranch. [1:34:19] In New Mexico. Can we play this clip? Can you find... [1:34:22] I think Jesse repackaged it after I pointed it out. [1:34:27] Thank you.

[1:34:28] but this is the story that like somehow we were so hung up about sex. [1:34:36] We're either angry about trafficking or we're getting off on the idea that all these rich people are going to get their comeuppance. We keep turning the Epstein story into something other than a scientific espionage story, which is one of its facets. [1:34:51] It's one component. It's one component. Right. Yeah. But it doesn't excite us. [1:34:57] that this is a guy spying. [1:35:00] Control of science, Joe. [1:35:03] is not something that is officially a big issue, and it is a massive issue. It's not publicly a big issue. That's correct. And he clearly had a big interest. So why did I buy a ranch in New Mexico in 1993? So that gives you some sense. I would have funded it in 1990. [1:35:22] Uh, [1:35:24] Los Alamos. [1:35:25] which was the high-energy lab up [1:35:27] in New Mexico, was losing all its scientists. [1:35:31] In Los Alamos, it was where Oppenheimer and where a lot of the nuclear weapons were in the bomb. That's where the Manhattan Project. Manhattan Project was at Los Alamos and you bought your property out in New Mexico to be near that? Yes, because the scientists were going to be, they cut the funding [1:35:47] for high energy physics. [1:35:49] But the people who worked in Los Alamos would still be in the Santa Fe area. They cut that because this was the Cold War dividend, right? I don't remember exactly why. It was because, again, people thought that physics and high-energy physics really wasn't that important. Because that was about nuclear weapons.

[1:36:06] No, it was because they decided it was maybe not right. This was the same time that Murray Gell-Mann, [1:36:12] came up with the term quark, Q-U-A-R-K. [1:36:16] He picked it out of an old poem, the word quok. But it was something, it was mysterious. [1:36:22] So they were starting to understand in the 90s that in our world of the physics world, there was things that were just unexplainable. [1:36:31] they called it strange things, you gave it a name, you gave it some characteristics, [1:36:36] You called it, it had charm, it was one of the terms, it had a charm, it had a flavor, it had a color. [1:36:42] Nobody really-- [1:36:43] No one [1:36:45] Mr. Bannon, understood what it was. [1:36:48] just like the financial system. [1:36:50] And you wanted to investigate that. [1:36:52] I wanted to see if we could build tools [1:36:55] so others smarter than me could help investigate it. And that was the beginning of your concept of the Santa Fe Institute? Yes. [1:37:01] Yes. [1:37:01] in Santa Fe Institute was founded to do study in this type of... Can you... Can these... [1:37:08] areas of strange things [1:37:10] be described by some form of mathematics. [1:37:14] Okay. [1:37:17] What you're seeing there, [1:37:19] is fascinating. Just take, by the way, very well isolated, exactly the bit that I wanted. [1:37:24] Thank you. [1:37:25] This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Lots of places can accidentally expose you to identity theft. Doctors' offices, online retailers, insurance companies, the list goes on. Thankfully, LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone could do on their own. LifeLock keeps an eye on your personal information, credit applications, finances, and more.

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[1:39:25] Visit Tremfiaradio.com. [1:39:30] In that interview, or that training, he claims to have founded the Santa Fe Institute. [1:39:36] Santa Fe Institute was founded, I think, in 1984, not 1990 or 1993. [1:39:42] Bannon clearly knows more about why these scientists were being defunded [1:39:48] Thank you. [1:39:50] than does the person who buys this property. Now, that property is not only close to Los Alamos, it's also close to Sandia National Laboratory. [1:39:57] Thank you. [1:40:00] What you, like people said to me, Eric, you said he was an idiot. He's clearly very knowledgeable. [1:40:06] You can see there [1:40:07] that you were wrong. I was like, [1:40:10] That is an actor. [1:40:12] That is not... [1:40:13] anyone smart [1:40:15] WITH [1:40:17] proximity to Murray Gell-Mann and others. He knew Murray Gell-Mann well. Murray Gell-Mann didn't name Quarks in 1990. [1:40:27] This goes back to like the 60s when George Zweig called them aces and Gelman called them quarks for three quarks for Muster Mark that came out of James Joyce. So he's he's just repeating stuff that he doesn't understand. Right. [1:40:40] "'And why did he buy the house, Zorro Ranch?' [1:40:43] to be close to [1:40:44] to the [1:40:45] scientists whose funding was cut. [1:40:48] The people who make weapons and who do high-energy physics... [1:40:52] who had the rug pulled out from under them.

[1:40:55] by the United States when they won the Cold War by putting this pressure on the Soviet Union. [1:41:02] Like, there's no thing more important than theoretical physicists, you idiot. [1:41:05] Idiots. [1:41:07] And you don't fund these people and you don't watch them. Like the Department of Energy is supposed to have counterintelligence. [1:41:14] To stop creeps. [1:41:16] from hanging around the National Labs, which is America's secret university system. Hello. [1:41:23] And... [1:41:25] Thank you. [1:41:27] That's what he was doing. [1:41:30] He was buying a property to be close to the national labs in New Mexico that make the weapons and that are in charge of trying to figure out the future. [1:41:40] So if you think about the national labs as this parallel thing to the university system, [1:41:45] But it's the secret part where you have to be American and you have to have a security clearance and all this kind of stuff. [1:41:51] Epstein set up a listening post. [1:41:54] Now, what's the UFO story? The UFO story is all about nukes. [1:42:00] And what was Epstein doing in Cambridge, Massachusetts? The analog of Zorro Ranch is named One Brattle Square. [1:42:07] It's right in the heart of Harvard University. [1:42:09] Square. [1:42:10] You know, I know it like the back of my hand. It's a seven-minute walk to the science center. [1:42:16] The Harvard Science Center, [1:42:19] On floors three, four, and five... [1:42:21] is where the math department is. [1:42:23] And who was Epstein's initial contact in the math department?

[1:42:27] It wasn't Martin Nowak who he funded. [1:42:31] There's a different guy named Benedict Gross. [1:42:34] Dick Gross was an expert [1:42:35] in number theory and in elliptic curves. [1:42:39] And elliptic curves are what power the cryptography. [1:42:42] behind Bitcoin, behind public keys. [1:42:47] Thank you. [1:42:48] You're talking about a guy... [1:42:50] who was setting up listening posts... [1:42:53] Next to extremely sensitive stuff that we've stupidly left unprotected in the open university system or defunded in our national labs. And when you say listing posts, like, what do you mean? He's going to hold. No, no, no. No? No. [1:43:06] just remained in contact with these people? [1:43:09] Joe, you've got real money. Guys with real money use dinner. [1:43:14] Dinner is an incredible thing. [1:43:17] I watched Peter Thiel use dinner. [1:43:20] Fly people in for dinners. [1:43:22] You put people up in a nice hotel for three nights. [1:43:25] Thank you. [1:43:25] Serve them amazing food from a private chef. You get a black car to collect them, and they'll tell you anything. [1:43:32] I don't mean that Peter was doing this in an evil way. [1:43:35] But I watched dinner after dinner after dinner as people disgorged. [1:43:40] All they knew because they were so happy was, [1:43:43] They're getting a $200 bottle of wine. [1:43:45] and being treated like humans. [1:43:47] you know [1:43:48] Like, respect it. [1:43:49] Thank you. [1:43:50] So in part, you have to understand that dinner in and of itself, or a mansion, is a mansion. [1:43:56] or a first-class ticket.

[1:43:59] is all it takes to get people to start talking. [1:44:02] Thank you. [1:44:03] Uh, Jeffrey Epstein was CIA. The communications network at Zorro Ranch prove it. The DOJ's own file showed Epstein built a military grade encrypted link to satellite orbit at Zorro Ranch. The contractor who built it now holds a Pentagon missile defense contract. [1:44:21] Thank you. [1:44:22] So remember, Jeffrey Epstein is a construct. [1:44:27] You know, there's this whole question about, like, why won't Jews talk about Jeffrey Epstein and the sex shit? [1:44:33] Like, as if I haven't been on this since 2004. Yeah. [1:44:36] Thank you. [1:44:37] Yeah, no one can accuse you of not talking about it. [1:44:40] If they can, they're just being ignorant. No, they're being a bitch because... [1:44:44] It used to be super dangerous. [1:44:47] This was like one of the really costly things. So what do you think that was, though? [1:44:51] this satellite [1:44:54] encrypted. All right, let's go there, but I'm a little bit nervous. [1:45:01] Why was Jeffrey Epstein able to get all of these people much richer than him into his orbit? [1:45:08] That's the question you should be asking. [1:45:10] Thank you. [1:45:12] So here's my theory. [1:45:14] Okay. [1:45:18] Just be careful. [1:45:20] Okay. [1:45:22] What happens when you become a billionaire? I don't know. [1:45:26] Not there. [1:45:27] Nowhere close.

[1:45:30] What happens is that you find out that it's not what you thought it was. [1:45:34] First of all, you now have staff everywhere. [1:45:38] You can't move around easily because you need a security detail. [1:45:42] Thank you. [1:45:42] Right? [1:45:43] When I first met Peter Thiel, I said, wow, your security detail on this beach is amazing. [1:45:48] I can't even tell where they are. He says, am I supposed to have a security detail? [1:45:52] Peter, you've got to be kidding. Now he's got one. [1:45:56] So the first thing is that you lose your privacy, you lose your freedom of movement, you've got a retinue of people who have to be constantly maintained, they're under your roof. [1:46:05] You know, this isn't what I signed up for. I wanted to be rich. [1:46:08] Well, you are rich. You can buy things. [1:46:11] Well, you can't buy privacy, you can't buy freedom, you can't buy anonymity, all these things that you want. And you can't buy the ability to do... [1:46:19] Fun, naughty stuff. [1:46:21] I'm not talking about little kids. I'm saying like... [1:46:24] Thank you. [1:46:25] If you're going to take drugs, you're at risk of having everybody want to tell the story. If you want to have a menage, you're at the same risk. So the question becomes... [1:46:35] What do I do to get what I thought I was going to do, which is the right to have freedom over my own life and to misbehave in fun ways? [1:46:43] whatever. [1:46:45] Nobody can figure out how to do it. Jeffrey Epstein could do it. [1:46:49] Now, why is it that he could do it? [1:46:50] - [1:46:52] Who's spoken to the contractors who built his island? [1:46:56] It's the most obvious thing to do. If I was an investigative journalist, that's what I'd do. I'd talk to, like, the plumbers, the maids.

[1:47:03] All of the people... [1:47:05] who [1:47:06] are just working for a living. [1:47:08] Those are the people who constantly leak information about their employers. [1:47:12] Thank you. [1:47:14] Well, who's the only person who has the ability to build something? [1:47:20] The CIA has its own construction company. [1:47:27] sovereigns. [1:47:29] Countries, nations, have the ability to do stuff [1:47:33] Where? [1:47:35] They know how to keep things under wraps. If you think about S4... [1:47:39] I guarantee you there's a men's room at S4. [1:47:42] Well, who cleans it? [1:47:45] That's a really important question. [1:47:47] Because that's the weak link. [1:47:49] And so rich people haven't figured out how [1:47:52] to be rich. [1:47:55] That's what everybody was attracted to in that upper income bracket. [1:47:59] That he would provide them with experience? He would provide them with things that they couldn't figure out how anybody could provide. [1:48:06] because they were dealing with a state. [1:48:12] I assure you that the Sultan of Brunei [1:48:15] Knows how to do stuff. [1:48:17] because he's both an individual... [1:48:19] and a state. [1:48:23] Most of us. [1:48:25] are either in this sort of black ops world, [1:48:29] Or... [1:48:30] We're dreaming about [1:48:32] being very rich.

[1:48:34] Thank you. [1:48:36] or just normal human beings. [1:48:39] The very rich are very disappointed. [1:48:42] Epstein felt rich, as I said before, in a movie sense. [1:48:47] He had freedom. [1:48:49] He could say and do things that other people couldn't. [1:48:55] You know, Elon, [1:48:57] is constantly tripping over the fact that... [1:49:01] I think he's a wild guy. [1:49:03] I'm up for wild guys. I want cowboy billionaires, cowboy physicists, cowboy everything. [1:49:09] But in general, we don't want cowboys. [1:49:12] and you know again this has nothing to do with little kids that's a different thing right um [1:49:18] But if you want to go take drugs, take drugs. [1:49:22] If you want to have a menage, have a menage. Fine. [1:49:25] I don't want to hear about it. [1:49:26] Don't spill the tea. I can't stand this culture. [1:49:30] Thank you. [1:49:30] Epstein knew how to keep quiet stuff quiet. And why is that? His product, as I've said before, was silence. [1:49:37] If you want a really dangerous question, ask the question. [1:49:44] What? [1:49:44] Did the people who were in his direct orbit have an unusually high number of disappearances? [1:49:51] around them. [1:49:52] Did they? I don't know. [1:49:55] But it's a dangerous question. I've never investigated it. But that's – have you ever seen – everybody talks about eyes wide shut now. [1:50:01] You notice that nobody talks about crimes and misdemeanors?

[1:50:05] where Woody Allen was directly in his orbit. [1:50:09] God, I don't even know if I've seen that movie. There is a scene where Martin Landau... [1:50:14] And Jerry Orbach's characters are a pair of brothers. I think that they only meet on screen once. [1:50:20] Thank you. [1:50:21] And Martin Lando's having an affair with... [1:50:23] and the woman has decided that she has rights. [1:50:27] And Martin Landau is a very wealthy ophthalmologist or something like that. [1:50:32] And he has a brother. [1:50:34] Who's the starker? [1:50:36] Strucker being the Yiddish word for a tough guy. [1:50:40] And [1:50:42] It's one of the most... [1:50:43] Can we find... [1:50:46] Jerry Orbach, Martin Landau, Crimes and Misdemeanors. It's the most blood-curdling... [1:50:50] so well done well they're only in one [1:50:56] If they're only in one scene together, they'll be at a... I haven't seen it in ages, but my memory is that they're at a house... [1:51:03] walking around a pool, and then they walk inside to the pool house. [1:51:08] And there's a resentment that the brother who's in the life... [1:51:13] Um... [1:51:15] Thank you. [1:51:16] is only called to the house occasionally. [1:51:19] And it's this way in which the genteel... [1:51:22] And the – [1:51:23] people who can get things done that you're not allowed to do within the law are connected. [1:51:28] And so Woody Allen is clearly writing this from personal experience. He has some... [1:51:34] interaction between

[1:51:36] being in high society... [1:51:39] and knowing starkers. [1:51:41] And I actually... [1:51:43] knew Woody Allen's old producer is the father of a friend of mine, a guy named Jack Grossberg. [1:51:51] And Jack Grossberg was an epitome of a tough Jew in Hollywood who would deal with the Teamsters or when there was a labor dispute. [1:52:00] You know, he wasn't in the life, but he was a guy who could stare down a mafioso. [1:52:06] I think that in part, Woody Allen is writing about what Jeffrey Epstein was providing, which was a measure of silence. Is this it? No, no, no. Okay. [1:52:14] I don't know. [1:52:16] No, we're looking for Martin Landau and Jerry Orbach. [1:52:20] in crimes and misdemeanors. [1:52:29] Yeah, that's going to be hard to find because it's... Oh, that one. Right there? Yep. Okay. Okay. [1:52:37] I think that this is the scene that nobody is talking about. I don't know, but she's killing me. Want me to have somebody talk to her? Like what? [1:52:47] Straighten her out. [1:52:49] Thank you. [1:52:50] What do you mean, threaten her? That's all I need. [1:52:52] How else do you expect to keep her quiet? Can you turn that up? As long as I can get it unfortunately. Okay. [1:52:58] Thank you. [1:53:00] Well... [1:53:02] Christchalk, why do you suggest... [1:53:05] What did you call me for?

[1:53:08] I don't know. I hope you have more experience with something. [1:53:11] This is... [1:53:12] You called me because you needed some dirty work done. [1:53:15] It's the one you have a call for. [1:53:20] how bitter you are. [1:53:23] You've... [1:53:24] staked me plenty of times. I don't forget my obligations. [1:53:27] Thank you. [1:53:28] Threatening will only make it worse, Jack. [1:53:31] Okay, forget about it. What do you want me to say? [1:53:34] How the hell can I forget about it? [1:53:36] I'm fighting for my life. [1:53:38] The swimming's gonna be, [1:53:39] destroy everything I've built. [1:53:41] That's what I'm saying, Judy. If the woman won't listen to reason, then you go on to the next step. [1:53:47] What? Threats? [1:53:48] Violets, what are we talking about here? She can be gotten rid of. [1:53:51] I mean, I know a lot of people. [1:53:53] Money will buy whatever is necessary. I'm not even going to comment on that. That's mind-boggling. [1:53:57] Well, what did you want me to do when you called me? Not to do dirty work, despite what you think. [1:54:04] Anyway... [1:54:05] it's gone beyond just Miriam now she's [1:54:08] She's talking financial doings. [1:54:12] I'm out of ideas. [1:54:15] I don't know what I expected from you, Jack, but... [1:54:17] You know... [1:54:18] You're not aware of what goes on in this world. I mean, you sit up here with your four acres... Don't give me any of that stuff. I don't want to hear about my sister. And your rich friends, and... [1:54:26] Out there in the real world, it's a whole different story. [1:54:30] I've met a lot of characters from when I had the restaurant. I know you have. I've heard these stories before. From 7th Avenue, from Atlantic City. [1:54:36] And I'm not so high class that I can avoid looking at realities. I can't afford to be aloof.

[1:54:42] When you come to me with a hell of a problem, and then you get high-handed on me. [1:54:48] Jack, I don't mean to be hindhanded. I haven't been sleeping. I'm irritable. Okay? Okay. [1:54:52] Okay, forget I said anything. [1:54:55] . [1:54:59] Let me just get something straight here. [1:55:03] Am I understanding you right? [1:55:04] I mean [1:55:07] Are you suggesting getting rid of her? [1:55:10] You won't be involved. [1:55:13] I'll need some cash. [1:55:18] Thank you. [1:55:19] What will they do? [1:55:21] What'll they do? They'll handle it. [1:55:24] Thank you. [1:55:27] I can't believe I'm talking about a human being, Jack. She's not a... [1:55:30] An insect here. Don't just step on her. [1:55:34] I know. [1:55:35] playing hardball was never your game. [1:55:38] You never like to get your hands dirty. [1:55:41] Apparently this woman is for real. [1:55:43] And this thing isn't just going to go away. [1:55:48] can't do it [1:55:51] I can't think that way. [1:55:54] Thank you. [1:55:56] Thank you. [1:55:57] Mm-hmm. [1:55:58] Thank you. [1:56:00] Thank you. [1:56:04] So while everybody's watching Kubrick... [1:56:09] This is a guy in Epstein's direct orbit. This is what Epstein was. He was a shtarker.

[1:56:15] He was a science spy. He was a starker. [1:56:17] He had buttons. [1:56:19] We're just all pretending like we have no memory of this, no idea about how we're all connected, how the highest in society are connected to the people who get things done. [1:56:30] And blackmail. [1:56:32] Thank you. [1:56:33] Blackmail is a lot... [1:56:35] We're over-indexed on... [1:56:37] In my opinion, again, who am I? I'm just a guest. [1:56:41] assumption. Well, I was very early saying he was a construct when nobody would listen. [1:56:48] Here's the next piece of it. [1:56:50] I think he had buttons. [1:56:53] He had button men at his control. [1:56:55] He made problems disappear. [1:56:57] Things went away. [1:56:59] That's how you make sure. [1:57:02] that you have the experience of being a king rather than a billionaire. [1:57:06] The billionaires had more money than him. [1:57:10] but they didn't have the ability to make their problems go away. [1:57:14] And by the way, I'm not suggesting that all the people in his orbit were availing themselves of this as a service. But if I was a competent investigator, I would be talking to Woody Allen and saying... [1:57:27] What did you mean by that scene? [1:57:31] You... [1:57:33] Look, because you think that scene is directly connected to Woody Allen's relationship with Jeffrey. No, I think that that scene is directly connected to... [1:57:41] to the connection between Hollywood... [1:57:43] and teamsters and unions and organized crime.

[1:57:48] There are people who know how to make things better. [1:57:50] Happen that aren't within the law, but what is the mafia we go we watch all these mafia pictures and [1:57:56] right? Mm-hmm. [1:57:58] The mafia is about contract enforcement when you can't use the courts. [1:58:02] That doesn't sound like what the mafia is, but that's what it is. It's a business. [1:58:07] What happens when you're in an illegal business and you can't enforce a contract? [1:58:14] Right? Yeah. You have to use muscle. [1:58:17] So we use genteel. Like he says, she can be taught. You want me to talk to her? [1:58:25] We can handle it. [1:58:28] This is the genteel language. [1:58:32] of roughing somebody up, [1:58:34] Killing somebody. [1:58:38] and making problems go away. [1:58:40] So the mafia is about business. It's not about violence. [1:58:47] Okay, so his connection to scientists though. [1:58:50] What was the purpose of that? [1:58:52] We don't know, but I keep saying... What's your assumption? My assumption is that he was a clearinghouse. [1:58:59] that somebody set him up at fair expense. I'm going to say nine-figure expense. [1:59:05] So I think this was a nine-figure fortune, hundreds of millions. [1:59:09] and [1:59:11] What it had was it had the trappings of multi-billionaire. [1:59:17] It had trillionaire,

[1:59:20] written all over it. [1:59:21] for a nine-figure fortune. So it's orders of magnitude off of what it was. And I believe that that was only possible because there was... [1:59:29] a collection of sovereigns behind him. [1:59:33] I don't think it was one nation. I think it was a bunch of countries. [1:59:37] And the most obvious country is not Israel. [1:59:40] It's the U.S. because he was operating on U.S. soil. [1:59:43] Do I think Israel was involved? Certainly. Do I think that the UK was involved? [1:59:48] I do. Saudi Arabia, I do. [1:59:51] Thank you. [1:59:52] I think that this was a massive piece of structure. [1:59:56] confused with a sex scandal and a blackmail operation. We're all sort of [2:00:01] "'Taking the bait.' [2:00:02] So the sex scandal... [2:00:04] All the sex stuff was sort of to keep people happy and give people a place to go to where they could have these experiences if you're dealing with [2:00:12] physicists or some high-end scientist guy. They don't have access to this. They've probably never been with a beautiful woman in their life. All of a sudden, they're hanging out with Jeffrey Epstein. I'm not talking about you, bitch. No, I'm not talking about me either. I'm sure you're fine. Ain't talking about love. But let's be realistic. Let's be realistic. [2:00:29] Most of these guys aren't. [2:00:30] They're not hot. [2:00:31] Right. And then all of a sudden they're around tens who are giving them back massages and drugs are being used. And there's this feeling of anonymity of safety. [2:00:42] You can get away with this. Everybody else is doing it. It's been going on for decades. It's fine. It's fine. This is the place you go. And it's fun, and they look forward to it. And they probably also do have intellectual discussions because you are surrounded by – Who wouldn't want in? Right. Right.

[2:00:56] Right. So that's how he ropes you in. That's right. So what is his why scientists and what would be the benefit of having access to these scientists and having this place in Zorro Ranch and being able to talk to these people? [2:01:09] Think about it from the perspective of who is doing the constructing rather than the constructed process. [2:01:15] So he's the construct. He's an incompetent. [2:01:19] He just lied to Steve Bannon. You see him touch his face, classic tell of lying. Touching your face is a classic tell of lying? If you look at what he just did. The way he did. 100%. So he's lying about the information or he's lying about his depth of knowledge? Yes, he's lying about his depth of knowledge. Okay. So how did I know he was a construct? In part, one of the things... [2:01:41] Like they're dumb tells that we give away. [2:01:44] One of his was he was supposed to be a currency trader, [2:01:47] And when we say we're trading currency, we're not trading currency, we're trading... [2:01:51] what are called spot contracts that are to be settled [2:01:54] with an exchange of currency in two days' time. [2:01:57] Right? So in other words, if I do a euro trade, it's really a dollar euro trade, and you and I are going to trade dollars for euros, and we agree to do it in two days' time. And then if you want to keep the position on, you exchange that contract for a contract that will follow to erase that contract and form a new contract, which pushes it out two days. You call that rolling things over. [2:02:17] He didn't know that Dollar Canada... [2:02:20] was on a one-day contract rather than a two-day contract where everything else. So in other words, there was an anomaly. [2:02:26] And anybody in currency trading would have known that.

[2:02:30] Or I forget whether he didn't know that... [2:02:33] trading pounds for dollars is called cable in the business. [2:02:37] So there were just dumb tells. [2:02:40] that he didn't know about foreign exchange. [2:02:43] Yeah. Hmm. [2:02:44] So he's claiming to be an FX hedge fund manager to me, and there were stupid tells like that. Right. And then he knows way too much about my exactly particular – [2:02:57] specialty in mathematics. [2:03:00] like, [2:03:01] Cool. [2:03:02] the number of people it could come from would be five or fewer. [2:03:06] So technically what I did my thesis on is something called self-dual Yang-Mills theory, which is about... [2:03:14] Every force other than gravity is a Yang-Mills force. [2:03:17] Except my thesis was really about gravity. [2:03:20] And I didn't disclose it. [2:03:22] And only people very, very close to me knew that that's what it was about. He was obsessed with Gravity. [2:03:28] Thank you. [2:03:28] And, uh, [2:03:31] He shows up, I think, in the Harvard Math Department in 2002 with Dick Gross. [2:03:37] and... [2:03:38] Clearly, he was talking to people in the Cambridge mathematical physics world. [2:03:44] who would have been... [2:03:48] There's something called the Chern-Simons theory. [2:03:51] which is... [2:03:52] mistakenly associated closely with Yang-Mills theory, but is really all about gravity. [2:03:57] Thank you. [2:03:58] and that my work really shows that

[2:04:01] there is a parent theory that has churn Simon's theory and gravity as its two consequences. He knows about that without knowing anything about the structure. [2:04:10] in the subject matter. [2:04:12] He knows about the history of my stuff and something called cyber-witten theory. [2:04:17] He doesn't know anything concrete. How does he know all this stuff? [2:04:22] He was in my world. [2:04:25] And he was very focused, you know, on... [2:04:27] I met him through Jess Staley. [2:04:31] Um... [2:04:32] who was at J.P. Morgan. [2:04:34] Thank you. [2:04:35] Now, Jess Staley is deeply implicated in this. I didn't know that at the time. [2:04:39] and [2:04:43] Jeff Epstein has been mirroring my entire life, everything that I do. [2:04:47] I became well-known when I was writing these essays for Edge.org, and he was in with John Brockman at the Brockman Literary Agency. [2:04:55] Uh... [2:04:56] When I got married, the rabbi came from Harvard Hillel, which was a building now called Rosofsky Hall, which he put together with Les Wexner's money. [2:05:04] Thank you. [2:05:05] um, [2:05:06] he was [2:05:07] funding probably the conference at the Perimeter Institute that we did on the financial crisis. [2:05:13] At every turn in my life, since I was a young man, [2:05:17] Jeffrey Epstein was... [2:05:18] there [2:05:20] in the background even though I only meet him once. [2:05:22] Why do you think that is? [2:05:24] because we're interested in the exact same thing. And what is that? [2:05:27] the [2:05:29] the most powerful stuff in the universe.

[2:05:31] Why is he interested in that? If he doesn't know the science. What do I care about? I care about finance and financial markets. I care about the CPI. [2:05:39] I care about the fate of Israel. I care about... [2:05:42] evolutionary theory. I care about mathematics that goes... [2:05:46] like, like, [2:05:47] geometry like the geometry of elliptic curves but really more differential geometry you care about physics and [2:05:54] Every time that I care... [2:05:56] And I care about the world's smartest people at a functional level, not the people with the highest IQ, but the people who are irreverent enough to actually move the needle. [2:06:07] So he and I... [2:06:09] But we're just... [2:06:11] We're interested in where's the action? [2:06:15] Where's the high-end intellectual action in the world that actually moves things? [2:06:20] And you know... [2:06:21] quite frankly, [2:06:26] He was meeting in my offices in San Francisco while I wasn't aware of it in 2017. [2:06:31] I didn't know that. [2:06:33] Meeting in your offices. Yeah. He went to your office and met with who? [2:06:37] Well, with... [2:06:38] with Peter that's in the records. [2:06:40] about you. [2:06:41] No, I don't know. Hopefully not. I know that I'm in an email that he sends Peter late in the story. [2:06:47] Thank you. [2:06:48] But I'm not going to discuss specifics. But, no, I was telling Peter not to deal with him, and Peter thought I was overblowing the danger. Yeah. [2:06:57] He scared me because...

[2:07:03] I know... [2:07:05] what element he came from. [2:07:08] That was not a refined person. That was a scary, scary person. [2:07:12] That was a person who came... [2:07:15] You know, like... [2:07:17] The Hesh character on The Sopranos. Mm-hmm. [2:07:22] Or Mo Green in The Godfather. Yeah. That's that element. [2:07:29] And you recognize that immediately? I... [2:07:32] That was my point in bringing up crimes and misdemeanors. It's not like I don't know people. I understand all this, but what do you think his purpose was? So getting connected to all these scientists, being around all this knowledge, the New Mexico, I still don't understand. What was the end game? Can I get another drink? Absolutely. Thank you, sir. Can I share this article with you? Please do. [2:07:54] Okay, this was the one I just pulled up a second ago. If we could get another ice cube, too, that would be great. About this. Um... [2:08:00] Jeff can get us a nice cube, please? [2:08:03] I would just down here, this is a long article. I believe most of this comes from the Epstein files that came out on the DOJ's website. The woman who wrote this, she's a former Boston Globe and New York Times reporter. [2:08:17] Also, LA Times. [2:08:19] The summary here is what I was kind of getting at because it's two or three paragraphs, but it explains a lot of what you're asking. [2:08:26] here. [2:08:28] Standard framing of Jeffrey Epstein as a Mossad asset is well-supported. Robert Maxwell, Ghislaine's father, sold Israel backdoored Promise software to Sandia National Laboratories in 1985. His eldest daughter, Christine Maxwell, built the FBI's post-9-11 counterterrorism data warehouse through her company, Chilliad. Isabel Maxwell, Christine's twin sister, co-founded...

[2:08:51] Calm touch with Israel unit 8,200 alumni. Ghislaine ran the human intelligence operation. The Israel intelligence network around both Maxwell and Epstein is documented and substantial. But the intelligence infrastructure supporting Epstein and Maxwell at Zorro Ranch points somewhere else or to somewhere additional. It points to the United States military intelligence, plain and simple. [2:09:16] The contractor who built his encrypted link to orbit is American, headquartered in Georgia, and now holds a missile defense agency contract. The satellite uplink was authorized by an American FCC license. The project was managed out of New York office. The man who recruited Epstein as a child served in the American OSS, and his own son was in charge of the Federal Justice Department when Epstein died, or didn't, in its custody. Bill Barr and his father is who that's referring to. [2:09:45] The man whose ranch provided the ideal relay point was OSS, built American missile guidance systems and military drones. And just up the road, another former OSS guy, Carl Schultz. [2:09:56] Ingwer sold his New Mexico ranch to the strangest duo of all time, Donald Rumsfeld and Dan Rather. [2:10:04] Thank you. [2:10:05] Hmm. [2:10:06] - Yep. [2:10:06] So this is what I've been trying to say all along. The only country that I'm absolutely positive was behind Jeffrey Epstein is us. [2:10:15] You can't operate here. [2:10:18] - Thank you. [2:10:19] Look... [2:10:21] Right now we are in the middle of endless anti-Semitic Christmas.

[2:10:26] It just goes on forever. [2:10:27] and [2:10:29] You can... [2:10:32] You look at Jeffrey Epstein, I have no question he was directly connected to Israel, you know? [2:10:37] Um, [2:10:39] But first and foremost, [2:10:41] I believe that he and I hate when we use the word asset. [2:10:47] You should use a vaguer word because those technical things, like who's an agent, who's an operator – [2:10:54] uh... it [2:10:55] Agent is a word used differently by the FBI and CIA. Every time we try to sound like we're cool, like we know what the intelligence community actually is, we make mistakes because we say something that becomes deniable. [2:11:09] You know, so like there's a concept of knock, non-official cover. [2:11:14] if you say somebody is a knock and you guess the wrong distinction... [2:11:19] They can say, no, he wasn't. [2:11:21] Was he an asset? I'm sure that has a technical meaning. You don't mean it technically. [2:11:27] You mean, was he in any way affiliated with the intelligence community? And it's not just the intelligence community. One of the ways that the intelligence community functions is it [2:11:37] as a cover, [2:11:38] for the special operations community. [2:11:41] Covert operations is something the CIA does through Ground Branch. [2:11:45] that is not intelligence. [2:11:49] So we call it intelligence, and we give them a free pass all the time. [2:11:53] No, those are the guys who do the wet work.

[2:11:56] That's a paramilitary organization. [2:12:01] Right. So my claim is that Epstein is a major piece of structure and having nothing to do with the actor that they hired. [2:12:11] Okay, so you think Epstein is essentially just a construct figurehead – [2:12:18] of an intelligence gathering organization. No. [2:12:21] No? [2:12:22] Epstein is a construct, first of all. Second of all, they're... [2:12:27] Is it an intelligence part of the intelligence community? [2:12:31] And there's a covert operations part of the intelligence community. [2:12:35] Okay. Covert operations is not intelligence. I know it's under that roof. [2:12:40] Right. That is totally wrong. Got it. Right. Okay. So if you want bad things to happen to somebody, you don't call intelligence because that's just human intelligence or signals intelligence or whatever. Right. [2:12:51] You're not going to call a cryptographer to make a problem go away. [2:12:55] Right. What does this have to do with the science community? [2:13:00] One. [2:13:01] We have huge amounts of power. [2:13:06] The United States is terribly configured because we pretend [2:13:09] that we're okay doing everything through our university system, which shouldn't be done. [2:13:15] In an open setting. You have to be honest about the fact that we're badly configured. What do you mean by that? We didn't know how deadly physics was. [2:13:24] When Rutherford in 1911 said that there's a neutron...

[2:13:29] Nobody, I'm sure nobody said to him, oh my God, you've ended the planet. Now humanity is doomed. [2:13:35] So it used to be the case. [2:13:36] that physics was something that was interesting and fun. [2:13:40] But now it's like the most deadly thing you can imagine as well as being interesting. And a quick timeline too if you stop and think about that. 41 years. Yeah. So literally – [2:13:48] Yeah. 41 years. [2:13:50] So my claim is that we are walking around right now [2:13:56] with all of these extremely deadly ninja priests. [2:14:02] in our physics departments, in our math departments, who don't even know that they're deadly ninja priests. [2:14:07] They've never worked on something classified. They've never solved problems for our government. But in part, we fund our scientists as part of a complex cryptic arrangement [2:14:18] worked out by Vannevar Bush, [2:14:20] that is now remembered by essentially no one. [2:14:24] So the idea is... [2:14:26] You people, Teller, Ulam, Feynman, Oppenheimer, [2:14:30] Von Neumann. [2:14:33] You are... [2:14:34] DevGroove, you're [2:14:36] SEAL Team 6 of The Human Mind. You're Delta. [2:14:41] And most of the time you're going to teach classes. [2:14:45] You know, it's like Indiana Jones, you know, an archaeologist with a bow tie. And then he's running around with a whip and, you know, killing people. [2:14:53] Right. [2:14:55] Okay, that's what physicists and mathematicians are. [2:14:59] That's why we're funded.

[2:15:01] That's why the Department of Energy funds physics. It's not the Department of Energy. It's the Department of Nuclear Weapons. [2:15:07] It's the Department of Physics. [2:15:09] So they let the physics people work out all these problems, and then they take – [2:15:13] whatever their findings are, and apply them to weapons. [2:15:16] Boom, vroom, and zoom. All right. And that changed the economy. It changes the ability to... [2:15:23] compute and [2:15:26] This is what... [2:15:27] This is who I really am. This is what I really do. [2:15:29] And I will not mouth this narrative that all of my colleagues will mouth. [2:15:35] Physics is interesting. [2:15:36] Yeah, a lot of the time it's dull. [2:15:40] you know [2:15:41] Physics is international. [2:15:42] Really? Why do you think the American taxpayer is funding this international effort, just to educate Chinese? [2:15:48] Thank you. [2:15:49] For all I know, we're trying to sterilize the Chinese and the Indians with string theory. [2:15:54] So because nobody's talked to me, [2:15:56] about this. I can speak freely. [2:15:59] But if you ask me, you know, the Indians are some of the most aggressive string theorists on Earth. [2:16:04] And my question is, do we import them in such large numbers so that they'll go home and be ineffectual? [2:16:14] That's crazy. So that's a real possibility? Yeah. That string theory exists as a distraction? Yeah. [2:16:20] Yeah. [2:16:21] Joe, what do you think the odds are that a scientist can say, [2:16:25] My failed theory is the only game in town and not get laughed out of town.

[2:16:31] Not so good. Yeah. I would imagine in a free-thinking world, not so good. In a free-thinking world, I would say, Ed Witten, you're full of shit. [2:16:39] Who talks like that? You're the smartest person I've ever met, and you have not earned the right to say that your failed theory. [2:16:47] your disaster, [2:16:48] of a catastrophe, [2:16:51] of a theory... [2:16:52] is the most failed theory in history in physics. [2:16:54] And you're saying it's the only game in town? Who died and left you kings, sir? [2:16:59] I want to bring you to one of the weirdest theories that you have. All right. Which is you talked about this – [2:17:05] Very overly supported... [2:17:09] physics department in the upstate [2:17:11] University, Upstate New York University, that's attached to a hedge fund. [2:17:15] SUNY Stony Brook's mathematics department and physics department. [2:17:20] Yeah. Yeah. [2:17:21] This is a weird one. [2:17:22] Because it's attached to a hedge fund that does Bernie Madoff type numbers. [2:17:26] Bernie Madoff is a [2:17:28] Loser Piker. [2:17:31] Joe, Bernie Madoff was regular, and that's why they called him the Jewish T-bill. [2:17:38] T-bill? Yeah. It's a T-bill. [2:17:39] Treasury security that allowed you to just... [2:17:44] earned some very boring, very high rate of return, where you were supposedly having your money at risk, but you essentially never lost. There were almost no down months. Renaissance [2:17:56] is like, [2:17:57] No, no, no. [2:17:59] Hold my beer. [2:18:00] We're just going to make numbers like nobody's ever made in human history. There's nobody in second or third place relative to Renaissance Technology Medallion Fund.

[2:18:08] And how is it connected to this university and what do you think is going on up there? [2:18:14] . [2:18:16] One, I don't know. [2:18:18] but something weird. [2:18:19] it's weird as hell [2:18:21] I know... [2:18:23] I knew Jim Simons personally. [2:18:26] Jim Simons. [2:18:29] is a genius. [2:18:32] But a lot of other people are geniuses. [2:18:34] I hate to say it, but you can't swing a cat in my world without hitting a genius. So he was great. [2:18:42] But he wasn't that much smarter than... [2:18:45] Than every other genius. [2:18:47] at that level. [2:18:49] so i would say you know [2:18:51] top 100 minds in mathematics and physics, clearly. [2:18:54] better than that. [2:18:57] Thank you. [2:19:00] Jim started off working for the DIA, the Defense Intelligence Unit. [2:19:06] Um... [2:19:07] supposedly quit out of outrage over Vietnam, [2:19:11] becomes the super young chairman of the SUNY Stony Brook Mathematics Department, holds a lunch center seminar, [2:19:20] with [2:19:21] a guy who will become the world's [2:19:24] smartest living physicist. [2:19:26] a guy named C.N. Yang. [2:19:28] Thank you. [2:19:30] And they discover over lunch a connection between differential geometry, Jim's [2:19:36] specialty and Sien Yang's

[2:19:39] Yeah. [2:19:39] specialty, which is the standard model. [2:19:42] Okay. [2:19:43] Jim then quits. [2:19:46] forms [2:19:47] hedge fund [2:19:49] long before it's cool. [2:19:51] with the father of another guest of yours on this program, Brian Keating. [2:19:58] And the two of them both have medals, so they call it medallion because they've won prizes. [2:20:04] So, what is his name? James Axe, not Keating. [2:20:07] uh... [2:20:08] And the two of them start this thing, and it takes off at some level that nobody's ever seen numbers before. [2:20:15] And then they institute this policy, which is we're not going to hire financial experts. [2:20:20] We're only going to hire math physics people. So we're going to hire geometers. We're going to hire particle theorists, general relativists, and machine learning people. [2:20:33] Who came up with this story? [2:20:36] Do you buy this story? [2:20:39] This is so strange because it sort of also mirrors the second story that was not associated with Brookhaven. [2:20:45] which is the National Lab near SUNY Stony Brook, [2:20:49] but associated with Los Alamos, which is a story called The Prediction Company. [2:20:53] Except in that case, the name of the person isn't Jim Simons. It's Doin Farmer. [2:20:59] And the prediction company is the analog of Renaissance. So what you see is that once people have a pattern, it seems like these patterns repeat. [2:21:07] Thank you. [2:21:08] So my point is, if you ask the question, do we have a Manhattan project in the current era,

[2:21:15] We don't know. [2:21:16] You don't know, I don't know. [2:21:18] But if we're allowed to speculate, [2:21:20] The question would be, where would it be located? [2:21:23] So how would you find, for example, [2:21:26] the existence of a boys' school in rural New Mexico where... [2:21:30] All of these super smart people are holed up. [2:21:34] That's a real puzzle. How would you figure out that Los Alamos was happening if that was your goal? [2:21:39] Thank you. [2:21:41] Um... [2:21:42] This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Selling your car should feel like one less thing on your list, not one more. With Carvana, it is. Just go to Carvana.com, enter your license plate or VIN, and get a real offer down to the penny. No back and forth, no surprises, just an experience you can trust. Like your offer? Accept it. Schedule a pickup, and we'll come to you with a check in hand. Your car, your timeline, your terms. Visit Carvana.com to sell your car today. Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. [2:22:12] Thank you. [2:22:12] This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Once you've got a great name for your business, you need a great domain. And Squarespace makes it easy to lock in a domain. You just search the name you want, buy it, and then you're ready to build. No hidden fees, no weird upsells. Go to squarespace.com slash Rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the code Rogan to get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. [2:22:42] You'd look for indirect evidence. Jamie, can you call up an article called Forbidden City from 1944 by a guy named, unfortunately, Jack Raper, R-A-P-E-R?

[2:22:54] Change your name, bro. I know. Right. [2:22:58] Just call yourself Rapper. Add a P or something. [2:23:02] so [2:23:04] Or a G before it came here? In 1944, the craziest thing of the... What? G? Graper? Graper, right, exactly. [2:23:12] There it is. Okay. So this article appeared Monday, March 13, 1944. Santa Fe, New Mexico. [2:23:21] The story of a secret city... [2:23:24] with a mayor. [2:23:27] who is the second Einstein working on a doomsday weapon... [2:23:31] where nothing leaks. [2:23:34] And this is from what year? 1944. [2:23:37] Okay. So the entire... [2:23:40] Manhattan Project leaked [2:23:43] Because a Cleveland journalist named Jack Raper... [2:23:46] happened to vacation in New Mexico, [2:23:48] and stumbled... [2:23:51] On the greatest secret ever kept. [2:23:54] Really? [2:23:56] Dude, how can we not know this joke? Wow. [2:24:00] And it's all about Oppenheimer. Residents must stay. Dr. Oppenheimer is a Harvard graduate, attended Cambridge. She's a Ph.D. from Göttingen University in Germany, professor of physics, University of California, California Institute of Technology, and is a fellow of too many organizations to enumerate. [2:24:20] And so there were [2:24:22] recognizing that Oppenheimer was doing something. They knew that he was working on a doomsday device. Uncle Sam has placed the city in charge of two men,

[2:24:31] The men who command the soldiers... [2:24:33] I can't read it. [2:24:34] We see that the garbage and rubbish are collected, the streets kept up, the electric light and plant and the waterworks functioning and all other metropolitan work operating smooth. [2:24:43] is Colonel Somebody. [2:24:46] I don't know his name, but it isn't so important because the Mr. Big of the city... [2:24:50] This is college professor Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer. [2:24:53] called the second Einstein. [2:24:55] by the newspapers of the West Coast. So what I'm trying to say is, Jack Raper... [2:25:00] Never got a Pulitzer Prize. [2:25:04] Died in obscurity. Leslie Groves, who was the other guy who was running the town, decided to send him to the Pacific to punish him for being the best journalist in America. [2:25:14] Thank you. [2:25:15] And... [2:25:16] When he found out he was 60 years old, they decided, okay, we're just going to ignore this story and hope everyone else does because it's too crazy to be real. [2:25:25] Now, what I'm telling you right now is... [2:25:29] Raper never figured out what Los Alamos was, but he knows that it doesn't make sense. I'm telling you Renaissance technologies doesn't make sense. So these different what? Another widespread belief is that he's developing ordinance and explosives. Supporters of this guess argue that. [2:25:44] it accounts for the number of mechanics working on the production of a single device. And there are others who would tell you, [2:25:51] Tremendous explosions have been heard. Oh, that Jack Raper with his overactive imagination. Ha ha ha. The problem with conspiracy theorists is that they say the darndest things, Joe. Okay, so...

[2:26:02] What do you think they're working on? [2:26:04] these people at [2:26:06] This is Upstate New York University. Well, what are we not working on? In other words, how do you discover what we're actually up to is in part you listen for the holes. [2:26:16] What do I work on? [2:26:19] I work on the ability to get out of the solar system. [2:26:23] That is my life's mission. [2:26:28] I think Elon is a bit of a pussy. [2:26:34] Uh... [2:26:35] Okay. [2:26:36] How so? I don't know. He won't meet with me. Well, it's okay. Maybe because you call him a pussy. Yeah. No, but... Maybe he's busy. [2:26:43] Maybe he's trying to make chicks pregnant. [2:26:45] Thank you. [2:26:46] No. [2:26:47] He meets with me. Something he does with recreation. Elon's a genius, and Elon is trying. [2:26:55] to replace scientists with Grok. [2:26:58] And one of the things that I was on an Indian podcast called, the guy's name is Beer Biceps Guy, Ron Beer, the Joe Rogan of India. And what's his name? [2:27:08] Ranveer Alabadia? [2:27:10] Can you find him? Shout out to Ron Veer. Yeah. So Ron Veer is a friend of mine in Versova and he [2:27:17] I went on his podcast, and I, before... [2:27:19] SpaceX and XAI merged. I said... [2:27:27] I said, look, I don't think SpaceX is Elon's space program. [2:27:32] His space program is Grok.

[2:27:36] Elon doesn't trust scientists for good reason, because they're weak. [2:27:41] So he's building his own scientist from when... [2:27:44] When we were strong. [2:27:46] He's going to have it read the corpus of physics done by competent physicists who actually care about the physical world so he doesn't have to deal with any of us. [2:27:53] That's why he won't meet. [2:27:54] It's not because he's not interested, not because he doesn't know. [2:27:57] Thank you. [2:27:58] I invited him to the talk as I did you yesterday. [2:28:02] it. [2:28:04] The goal is to get out of the solar system, and we're so far away from everything good. [2:28:08] that there's no way of doing it under relativity. [2:28:11] So why are we not researching the only thing? [2:28:16] that can save us, which is diversification. We need to spread out to the largest number of habitable worlds possible. So this implies some sort of a new propulsion system? This implies new science. Stop thinking technology. There's no way to – you can't engineer your way out of a science problem. You have to science your way out of it. What would be that science? [2:28:36] Post-Einstein, post-relativity. That's what I do. [2:28:40] And how would that apply to us leaving the solar system? We don't live in space-time. Space-time has a speed limit. [2:28:49] Explain that. If you can only go the speed of light at your best and you can't even get anywhere close to that, how are you going to get to something four light years away? [2:28:58] Um... [2:29:00] in a fantasy world. By the time you go and come back, even assuming all... No, no, no. Assuming you can go at under the speed of light, just under.

[2:29:08] You can use time dilation and relativistic effects to your benefit. [2:29:13] but it's going to cost you eight years to go and come back. Right. [2:29:17] Okay, I don't want to do that. If I'm going to explore the cosmos, I don't want to use – I don't want to live in space. So what are the alternatives? Yeah. [2:29:24] the observers. [2:29:26] The successor to space-time, I'm happy to predict this on your show, will be named the Observerse, which is a combination of not just using a four-dimensional space-time manifold, but [2:29:36] but a 14 and a four-dimensional space simultaneously. This was what I was talking about at the university yesterday. [2:29:43] And how would that – like when you say the difference between science and technology, how would that science be applied? If we look at the surface of this table, I can't do this to it. [2:29:55] Can't spread it apart. Right. Move it. Right. It's called pinch to zoom. Right. It's a multi-touch gesture invented around 2003 or something, debuted at TED. But if I come to this device, I can do that. Your phone. Right. So imagine that this is space-time. Okay. [2:30:11] And this is the observers. [2:30:14] So if I want to go to a distance... [2:30:16] star. [2:30:17] There's no way I'm gonna [2:30:18] Just go really fast. Right. That's dumb. [2:30:22] And I need an energy source and I need to do things that we can't normally do. You have to jailbreak space time. If Einstein is in force, we all die. If we go beyond Einstein, some of us will live and some of us will die. [2:30:36] And what would be the energy that you would need to...

[2:30:41] in order to do this. So how do you unlock this? [2:30:45] One is... [2:30:46] Maybe it's not that energetic to do these things. Energy is technically... [2:30:53] Time Momentum. [2:30:55] You can talk about momentum in the x direction, momentum in the y, momentum in the z. [2:31:00] fine [2:31:01] What's momentum in the time direction? [2:31:03] It has a different name. We don't call energy time momentum, but that's what it is. [2:31:07] So first of all, I don't believe that there's one direction of time. There's no arrow of time. That's not true. [2:31:14] I believe that time is multi-dimensional. The only [2:31:17] dimension that has an ordering [2:31:21] is one dimension. [2:31:23] So in other words, if I say to you, [2:31:26] Joe has two cigars. Eric has none. [2:31:28] Who has more cigars? [2:31:30] Ciao. [2:31:31] Okay. Joe has two cigars, [2:31:35] But Eric has three glasses. [2:31:37] And no cigars. [2:31:39] Joe has one glass and two cigars. Who has more stuff? [2:31:43] Well, now it's not clear because Eric has more glasses than Joe. [2:31:47] But Joe has more cigars, so in two dimensions, we no longer can say... [2:31:51] This is better than that. [2:31:53] for things where you have more of one and less of another. [2:31:56] Okay. [2:31:58] Time is like that. [2:32:00] In one dimension, there's an arrow. There's an ordering. We call it, it's like a well-ordered set or something. In two dimensions, all bets are off. [2:32:09] And two and higher.

[2:32:11] The number of dimensions in total... [2:32:14] is going to be either five or seven. [2:32:17] And... [2:32:19] Each of those dimensions has a different kind of energy. [2:32:24] So in other words, energy... [2:32:26] is unique because there's only one time dimension. But as soon as [2:32:31] time has multiple dimensions, you can talk about multiple forms of energy. [2:32:35] Just the way you can talk about momentum in the x direction, momentum in the y direction, or momentum in the z direction. [2:32:41] Thank you. [2:32:43] so [2:32:44] In part, what I'm trying to do is to jailbreak space-time. That's what I'm actually doing. [2:32:49] And I'm doing it with zero support. [2:32:52] with no confirmation that this is real, because something is controlling my entire community. [2:32:58] Thank you. [2:32:59] to make this funny ha-ha just like Forbidden City. [2:33:03] was Jack Raper has gone mad. [2:33:05] He thinks that there's a city in New Mexico where there's a mayor... [2:33:09] who's a second Einstein, developing a doomsday weapon. [2:33:12] Is that funny? [2:33:13] What a loon, that guy. What an idiot. [2:33:16] Ha ha. [2:33:17] Thank you. [2:33:18] That's what's going on, Joe. [2:33:20] So how do you think that... [2:33:24] technology could be applied to these ideas in order to create some mode of travel. [2:33:32] Pinch to zooms, Joe. Right, but how? How would that be done? So right now we're in a four-dimensional world. Call that flatland. Okay. Imagine that there are ten perpendicular dimensions called symmetric two-tensors.

[2:33:45] Four of those... [2:33:48] are spatial [2:33:50] Directions. [2:33:51] and six of them temporal, [2:33:53] or [2:33:54] four of them are [2:33:57] temporal and six of them spatial. I can't tell you one of those two. [2:34:01] Okay. But there are additionally either four or six extra time dimensions. Okay. [2:34:07] or six or four space dimensions. [2:34:11] We have to gain access to break out of flatland. [2:34:14] We live in flatland. We don't know we live in flatland. [2:34:18] And I know... [2:34:19] what [2:34:20] that [2:34:21] Technically the name is fiber dimension. [2:34:23] what it is we have to gain access to it which is discovering that somebody gives you an obsidian rock [2:34:30] that has a property that you've never seen before called pinch to zoom. [2:34:35] So I need to make the distance to the nearest star small. [2:34:40] So I can go... [2:34:41] with reasonable speed. [2:34:44] Or instantaneously. [2:34:46] I don't need it instantaneously. [2:34:48] If I have something four light years away and I can make it 100 feet away, I can walk 100 feet. [2:34:54] Easily enough. [2:34:56] I can push something. Right. So the idea is if I can gain access to the fiber... [2:35:03] the distance becomes relatively immaterial. So if you think that these physicists are working on this and all these... No, I didn't say that I think... Okay. I'm saying... [2:35:12] If anybody is working on either one of two things is happening. Either we are become the stupidest nation on earth, destroying our own ability to do physics.

[2:35:22] We gave away the store. [2:35:24] We're morons. That's possible. [2:35:26] Or we're doing it in private. [2:35:29] And you feel like it's possible to hide all this? [2:35:32] From the general public? Well, my point is you're not going to hide it. No, no, no. The same way they did it before would be spoiled by satellites. [2:35:40] Right now, if you tried to do Los Alamos, you couldn't do it because of the satellites. Right. So it has to be hidden in... [2:35:48] plain sight. [2:35:50] It has to look like something that it isn't. [2:35:53] So if you ask me, [2:35:55] Let's imagine you ask me a different question. Let's imagine you ask me, Eric. [2:35:59] Nobody's willing to give you money. Nobody's willing to employ you. Nobody's willing to have you speak at their seminar. [2:36:04] despite the fact that you have complete blue chip credibility. [2:36:08] Thank you. [2:36:09] How would you... [2:36:11] How would you organize a secret team? [2:36:13] to get control of our adversaries, the world, and the ability to traverse the cosmos. Sure as shit wouldn't build a chemical rocket company. That's dumb. [2:36:25] but I do it as cover. [2:36:26] Thank you. [2:36:28] And I sure as shit wouldn't do things in an open university department. [2:36:32] Here's what I do. [2:36:34] I'd build an organization. [2:36:37] that could rationalize billions passing through it with almost no footprint. [2:36:42] Because what I really need is whiteboards. [2:36:44] and coffee. [2:36:45] and smart people. [2:36:47] and a secure campus and a story. [2:36:50] That's all I need.

[2:36:53] God, wouldn't you love to have access to what they're doing? [2:36:55] No, because I'm going to do it myself. How are you going to do that? [2:36:59] Because I know... [2:37:00] I know really smart people, Joe. Don't you need insane amounts of money in a laboratory somewhere? You know what? [2:37:06] It's funny. Like Sam Altman is racing. Dario Amadai is racing... [2:37:10] Elon Musk for superintelligence. [2:37:13] So, [2:37:15] I ask myself, [2:37:16] If you could have premium subscriptions to Grok, Gemini, and... [2:37:21] XAI. [2:37:22] um [2:37:23] Sorry. [2:37:25] Grok, Gemini... [2:37:28] clawed [2:37:29] All of them. Or you could have Edward Frankel's home phone number. Which would you choose? I'd choose Ed Frankel's home phone number. [2:37:39] So I get to call Ed Frankel whenever I want to. [2:37:42] That's smart. [2:37:45] Look, there are people that you don't even know about. [2:37:49] who are just terrifyingly smart, who... [2:37:54] Allow me to assemble that team. [2:37:57] Is that literally what you're trying to do? [2:38:00] Oh, yeah. And how are you doing it? [2:38:02] I don't know. I stayed with Ed for five days in Berkeley. [2:38:06] Thank you. [2:38:06] I got him and... [2:38:09] Another colleague... [2:38:11] Who's also terrifying. I'm using Soviets, Joe. [2:38:15] Ex-Soviet. Okay. Because those guys haven't lost the magic. [2:38:20] And, uh... [2:38:22] You know, I had Frankel and a guy named Misha Kapranoff come down.

[2:38:26] Thank you. [2:38:27] for five days to kick the shit out of my theory. [2:38:31] It was crazy. Absolutely crazy. We were drinking vodka at 10 a.m., having... [2:38:36] insane meals. [2:38:40] And just working our asses off the way we're supposed to. [2:38:45] How'd it go? [2:38:46] Amazing. [2:38:48] What do they think about your theory? [2:38:50] So far all systems go Joe [2:38:53] Okay, so... In other words, the story... [2:38:58] Can we just pull up... [2:39:01] I just want to do this for my own reasons. Can we pull up the pinned tweet on my Twitter profile? Which, by the way, thank you for retweeting. [2:39:09] No problem. [2:39:11] Love you. Love you, too. What is it? Go to it real quick. [2:39:15] Thank you. [2:39:16] Thank you. [2:39:18] So – [2:39:19] First of all, I want to show off the header here. [2:39:21] Can we go up to the top of the header before we do that? [2:39:27] Those... [2:39:28] to [2:39:29] formulas. [2:39:31] The bottom one says CFJ. [2:39:35] C is Sean Carroll. [2:39:38] The middle F is fields, and J is Roman Jakiv, a professor at MIT. [2:39:47] Sean Carroll's second most cited paper has this as its action, or Lagrangian.

[2:39:56] Right above that. [2:39:58] Is my action a Lagrangian? [2:40:00] And what you see, all those zeros, there's things that Sean Carroll doesn't know how to handle. [2:40:05] And that thing where you see a pea... [2:40:08] You see star parentheses P in the bottom line. [2:40:11] not the bottom, the second from the bottom, is Sean's relativity-violating hack. [2:40:18] Sean Carroll did not disclose. [2:40:21] the geometric unity [2:40:23] is a direct competitor to his most cited work. So now if we can roll the clip, it'll make more sense as to what's going on. [2:40:34] Thank you. [2:40:35] Thank you. [2:40:35] And let's blow that thing up to full screen. Your misportrayal of the situation is nearly constant for reasons that completely elude me. [2:40:45] Sean? [2:40:47] The good news is I have read Eric's paper. Here it is. I actually have it here, right here. [2:40:51] first thing you gotta do is make sure that your theory makes contact with modern physics as it is understood if you have a new paper out businesses are going to look at it they're going to look for you know where's lagrangian. So this is for people that are just listening [2:41:10] This is showing that you have Ligangians. [2:41:13] in your [2:41:15] He's showing Sean Carroll lying. [2:41:17] Right. [2:41:19] Did you – the interactions are in there as well. Did you call him out on this on the show? I couldn't believe that he'd do this.

[2:41:28] I was just stunned. [2:41:30] Proton stability, that's in there as well. So essentially he's lying to make it seem like your theory doesn't work when you have all the things that he's saying your theory doesn't have. One of two lies. We don't know which lie. Okay. There's a lie that says... [2:41:45] uh... [2:41:46] I read your paper. [2:41:47] I'm willing to... [2:41:49] entertain the fact that he's lying that he read my paper. [2:41:52] And I'm willing to [2:41:53] entertain the fact that he's lying... [2:41:56] that [2:41:57] He read my paper and he's going to deny that these things are in there. But I don't know which lie he's telling. Right. One of them is a lie. One of them is a lie. Either he lied saying you read your paper or he lied saying – he definitely lied saying those things aren't in there because he did say those things aren't in there. That's a lie. Right. He just says there's none of that, none of that, none of that. [2:42:12] Okay, so my claim is... [2:42:14] Like right there. [2:42:17] Joe, what am I... Just... [2:42:18] let's just [2:42:19] One second. [2:42:21] Thank you. [2:42:22] I'm in a world that makes absolutely no sense, and I don't want to disappear. [2:42:27] I'm not suicidal. [2:42:29] I have been the major competitor of string theory for 42 years. I'm not a podcaster. I'm not a guest. I'm not a guest. [2:42:36] I'm not an entertainer. [2:42:40] What I really do for a living... [2:42:43] I'm not paid to do. [2:42:45] Okay, I understand that. Yeah. But when he's saying... I don't know what to do. [2:42:48] You just didn't know what to do in the moment. I mean, what do I want? Do I want a legal battle? Right. [2:42:52] I've got a defense contractor. One of the world's largest companies is a defense contractor, which has a campaign against me for reasons I don't understand.

[2:43:02] Just no clue. [2:43:05] why anyone would say you don't have a Lagrangian. [2:43:08] So he's attached to a defense contract? No, no, no. But there's a – [2:43:13] Oh, my God. [2:43:15] By virtue of the fact that the conspiracy against me, and I literally mean technically a conspiracy against me, [2:43:21] is organized through these Discord servers, [2:43:25] and [2:43:26] There's an engineer at Google. [2:43:29] who, for example, can't get [2:43:31] a paper against me that lies about what it is that I'm up to. [2:43:35] published on the archive, which is where physicists share their stuff. [2:43:40] So the engineer will say, how about you do a talk at Google, Sabina Hassenfelder, and Sabina Hassenfelder will come to Google. [2:43:49] And [2:43:50] She'll be given her thing if he will be allowed to post an anti-Eric podcast. [2:43:56] screed or paper or whatever you want to call it against me. [2:43:59] So what I'm trying to say is I'm acting as Jack Raper in some way. [2:44:03] I'm doing stuff and saying stuff. Like, Epstein is a construct. Well, okay, now you can say that, but you couldn't say that when I started saying it. [2:44:13] Thank you. [2:44:14] You can't say Ed Witten is driving theoretical physics off of a cliff. You can't say... [2:44:19] You know, the reason that... [2:44:23] We have the particles that we do, that there's a 10-dimensional fiber in a fiber bundle above space-time that isn't acknowledged. For some reason, the things that we're talking about on this show...

[2:44:33] are dangerous. [2:44:36] We're having dangerous conversations, Joe. That's what JRE does. [2:44:41] And sometimes you go all the way and sometimes you puss out. But, like, this is a dangerous place because they can't tell you what to do. And that's why they put you in, like, a different color on the screen during COVID. [2:44:53] because you went against the narrative. [2:44:56] The narrative was, go get vaccinated. [2:44:59] The narrative was, if you think that COVID came from anything other than a wet market, you're a racist. [2:45:05] Every time you've gone up against the narrative, they try to destroy you. [2:45:09] You're still here. [2:45:11] but you've been badly bruised at various times. [2:45:15] . [2:45:16] You are a danger to the narrative as I am a danger to the narrative. That's one of the reasons why this is like, I don't know what it is, it's my eighth, sixth, some large number of appearances. We are scary to the narrative, and the narrative can no longer be held together. [2:45:31] I want to bring you back to the technology that's involved. [2:45:33] So when we're talking about [2:45:37] This... [2:45:39] that may or may not exist. And when we're talking about [2:45:44] UAPs, for lack of a better term. Do you think that these are connected? And do you think that... Yes. So one of the things that I've suspected, and I'm not the only one. Many people have suspected this. It's very odd that a lot of these sightings, that these... [2:46:00] Air Force pilots and Navy pilots that they find

[2:46:04] They're over and near military bases. That's right. Which is where you would practice. [2:46:10] Or restricted airspace, which is where you'd use your stuff. [2:46:13] And when they see these things... [2:46:15] And they have these experiences with these things. [2:46:18] The people that they report them to don't seem shocked. [2:46:22] Right. [2:46:23] Yeah. I mean, this is what Ryan Graves experienced. This is what Commander David Fravor experienced. [2:46:30] that they... [2:46:31] tell these people about these things and no one is like, what the fuck are you talking about? [2:46:36] Right, because they know. Because this might be ours. So some of this is ours. [2:46:43] Okay. Some of this is foreign nations and some of this is not understood. That's what I believe. Okay. Okay. [2:46:49] So some of these things they're seeing. [2:46:53] is a part of some undisclosed program. I believe that, for example, some of this is not craft. [2:46:59] but the ability to create the illusion of craft. [2:47:03] Okay. [2:47:05] I believe, is Kraft. [2:47:08] So the ability to create like a hologram? [2:47:11] Thank you. [2:47:12] I don't know. [2:47:13] Like a halt. Plasma? Yeah. Projected plasma? That's right. Okay. Which we know they can do. We've seen them. We've showed videos. We've seen limited versions of this. Imagine that those things scale up. Okay. Okay. [2:47:30] If there were no aliens or craft,

[2:47:35] I would want to create a program [2:47:38] if I was in the... [2:47:40] disinformation business. I would want to create one of these things. [2:47:43] Because there's a God-shaped hole in all of our souls and minds. [2:47:47] Thank you. [2:47:49] And so aliens and spacecraft fill that hole. Right. It's God for atheists. Yeah, yeah. It's God for atheists. [2:47:56] So first of all, I would think that we were incompetent if we didn't have something that created UFO ghost stories. [2:48:04] Why wouldn't you use that? [2:48:06] Thank you. [2:48:07] I also believe that there are foreign nations that may have leapfrogged us. [2:48:14] Clearly we saw that where we invested in aircraft carriers and other people invested in drones and they realized that this was about economic warfare. It costs too much to shoot down, cheap stuff to make. [2:48:24] so we're in the process of having our Suez moment, if you will, [2:48:30] in Iran if we're not careful. [2:48:33] where it is revealed that our [2:48:35] lead in aircraft carrier groups is not what we thought it was. [2:48:39] Mm. [2:48:41] So we can get to Iran in a second, if you like, but... [2:48:44] What I believe is that [2:48:46] We've been dumb. [2:48:49] We've been extremely stupid since the end of the Cold War. Bill Clinton and Dick Morris ushered in an era of stupidity that... [2:48:56] I cannot even believe is so antithetical to my notion of my belonging to the smartest nation on earth. [2:49:04] Um...

[2:49:05] that we've just basically gutted our smart people. The smart people don't even know each other. Now, what is going on with the technology and what we're seeing – [2:49:15] We've lost control of some airspace. That's what I believe is... [2:49:18] I don't know that to be true, but I believe with very high probability. And you think that's what San Antonio is about? [2:49:24] San Antonio. [2:49:25] No, I'm sorry, El Paso. Yeah, I believe that El Paso is not about cartel drones. That's true. [2:49:30] I mean, that's not to say that there isn't a cartel drone here or there, but I don't think we shut down airspace in Old El Paso to deal with cartel drones. [2:49:41] What were the experiences that people were reporting? [2:49:47] What do you know about what happened in El Paso? Well, there's what I know. [2:49:52] which is all secondhand. [2:49:55] So what I can say I know firsthand is the reporting of various things by various people. But I've probably had five-plus conversations about White Sands. [2:50:05] People who don't know each other. [2:50:06] Not connected. So whoever is supposed to be keeping White Sands a secret failed. [2:50:12] Okay, so... [2:50:14] I believe that White Sands... [2:50:16] has an infestation problem. [2:50:19] with stuff that is... [2:50:22] either not ours... [2:50:24] or is being blue team, red teamed. [2:50:27] Ours and not told to our people. [2:50:31] How would you deal with the following puzzle? [2:50:33] So maybe we're putting our own – one group is putting our drones or something in the air. Right. And another group is being told, how would you deal with this problem? We've lost control of our airspace, but something is going on in New Mexico.

[2:50:47] What was the descriptions? [2:50:50] What does it say here? [2:51:05] Pentagon anti-drone testing. The Pentagon was testing high-energy laser counter-drone technology out of the nearby Fort Bliss military base, the FAA, grounded commercial flights out of an abundance of caution because of the unannounced testing. [2:51:19] cartel drone activity. Officials from the Trump administration cited incursions from Mexican drug cartel drones breaching U.S. airspace as the primary reason for the defense system's [2:51:29] that the defense systems were deployed in the first place. Lack of communication. White House officials later noted that the FAA administrator implemented the surprise flight ban without notifying the Pentagon, Department of Homeland Security, or White House officials. That seems crazy. The story doesn't hang together. That part doesn't hang together at all. Well, that's the thing. The FAA administrator implemented a flight ban without notifying the Pentagon, the Department of Homeland Security, or the White House officials. That doesn't even seem legal. [2:51:59] But I don't know. [2:52:01] - [2:52:02] You and I both have at least 105 IQs. [2:52:07] These are like 65 IQ stories. [2:52:11] So [2:52:11] Yeah. [2:52:12] Well... [2:52:13] The Mexican drone cartel one seems like a dopey narrative. But maybe there are actually Mexican drones. I'm sure the cartels have drones. Okay, so the cartels have drones, and we're going to use the fact that El Paso is close to white seats. Right. But what was the reported drone activity? Do you know anything about it? I do. Yeah? Not going to say.

[2:52:35] No. Mysterious. Hardly being mysterious. I'm saying as much as I can. I understand. But here's the thing. I'm joking around. Okay. [2:52:42] But I'd like to know. [2:52:45] Right, but I'm... Tell me later. [2:52:47] No? Shit. No, it's not like that. [2:52:50] Look. [2:52:53] Oh, fuck you both. [2:52:56] Let's play that awesome music again. There's a video from the AP posted out just four days ago that says there is a cartel attacking lots of people. Well, I'm sure there's cartel drones. What I'm trying to say is that, of course, every single person who knows how to keep a secret knows how to use the truth to hide a lie. Right. Of course. And that's always been done. So the thing that I'm doing is I am... [2:53:19] I am an American. [2:53:21] I am so grateful to this country. I love my country. [2:53:25] I am going to maintain the ability... [2:53:28] till my dying day to help my country and advise my country. [2:53:34] is a bitch. [2:53:35] I don't know why she's acting this way. I don't know why she's been stupid since 1992. [2:53:42] Right? [2:53:43] But she's been acting like a moron since the Clinton administration. [2:53:49] We're bad at being America. [2:53:52] And I can't stand it. So I'm going to. [2:53:55] I would love to tell you everything I know. I would love to penalize people for being... [2:54:00] bad at their jobs, [2:54:03] But I'm going to retain the ability to advise my government until my dying day. And so I'm not going to say what I know. Okay. It says, this is from New York Times. Inside the debacle that led to the closure of El Paso's airspace, FAA citing grave risk of fatalities from a new technology being used on the Mexican border got caught in a stalemate with the Pentagon, which deemed the weapon necessary.

[2:54:27] Whatever. Okay, who knows? Bullshit. Come on. As many stories as you can spin, right? Throw them all out there, right? Throw a bunch of them. Look, our press was largely set up in World War II to go to war. [2:54:38] And it's been that way ever since. [2:54:41] And during the Walter Cronkite era and the Eric Severides and all that kind of stuff that nobody really remembers... [2:54:48] We had a measure of freedom to talk about things, and it got too much. And in the middle of the 1970s, we had the Church and Pike committee hearings, and we freaked out. [2:55:00] We found out who we really were. [2:55:02] We are both the super naive, squeaky clean state [2:55:06] and the baddest of the bad MFs. [2:55:10] We're both things. We're a hybrid. [2:55:13] We're extremely Machiavellian. We're extremely naive. There's no way of stopping that being what we are. [2:55:25] there's a foreign nation that has... [2:55:27] some sort of technology that can invade our airspace at will. And that was what the shutdown was. I believe that somebody may have leapfrogged us as they have leapfrogged us in drone technology. [2:55:40] So then it leapfrogged us in some... [2:55:43] propulsion technology. I believe that there's a nation... [2:55:47] in Asia. [2:55:49] China, which... [2:55:52] puts on amazing drone shows, and buys up our academics who aren't being paid,

[2:55:57] Because we're sitting around bitching. What have you technical people done for us? [2:56:02] Why do you deserve... [2:56:04] to be paid from taxpayer dollars? And the answer is, oh, shut the fuck up. [2:56:09] We created your economy, you stupid bitches. [2:56:13] We're the baddest of the bad. We are the source of your wealth and your strength. [2:56:18] And you come to us bitching about your taxpayer dollars? [2:56:22] You deserve to lose to China, you little... [2:56:25] Mm. [2:56:27] I have no words for the, also the new crop of tech billionaires who were bitten by COVID, [2:56:34] What do you mean by that? Well, they think that Anthony Fauci was a scientist, and so they believed in science before Fauci, and now they don't believe in science. Yeah. [2:56:44] I don't understand what you're saying. Oh, my God. I literally don't understand what you're saying. All right. Silicon Valley had a huge about face. [2:56:53] when they figured out that Fauci was full of shit. [2:56:58] A lot of them bankrolled our universities. [2:57:00] They supported science. They were Democrats. And then somehow COVID happened. [2:57:06] And because they had this childlike belief in universities, science, and the Democratic Party, they ran to the Republican Party. [2:57:14] like children. [2:57:15] Thank you. [2:57:17] not understanding. [2:57:19] that [2:57:21] Anthony Fauci was not a scientist. COVID is a giant lie.

[2:57:28] Collins and Fauci and Ralph Baric and Peter Daszak are menaces. [2:57:33] to the credit of science. [2:57:36] The credit rating of science went into the toilet with Silicon Valley, and a new idea was born, which is that the engineer is everything, the scientist is nothing. [2:57:47] Everything should be a for-profit, not a non-profit. [2:57:51] Artificial intelligence should replace our best people. [2:57:56] I mean... [2:57:57] you [2:57:58] this is the spell that [2:58:00] many of our [2:58:02] and [2:58:03] I would like to think that I count Mark Andreessen, Peter Thiel as friends. Sam Altman is a friend. [2:58:12] I don't know what happened to all of these people. [2:58:15] They're just wrong. [2:58:17] And they're rich. And somehow we, like our public intellectuals became our billionaires. [2:58:22] What does Naval say? What does Marx say? [2:58:25] What does Elon say? [2:58:27] Everybody who's talking their book is now our public intellectuals. [2:58:32] And [2:58:33] Quite honestly, they're all brilliant. [2:58:36] But they're all highly motivated. [2:58:39] Mm. [2:58:42] That's fact. Yeah. [2:58:45] But... [2:58:46] Where are our scientists? Where are our intellectuals? Where are our people who care more about science? [2:58:52] How do I say this? [2:58:53] Glory... [2:58:56] and immortality rather than private jet travel.

[2:59:04] You could not get me... [2:59:06] to give up my claim on immortality for private jet travel. [2:59:11] I don't understand the fascination with private jets. [2:59:15] They're cool. [2:59:17] mildly, [2:59:21] Well, it's not just private chats. Well, what is it? [2:59:25] I think they attach monetary gain... [2:59:29] to... [2:59:32] Success. [2:59:33] and above and beyond needs. [2:59:36] So it becomes a way of measuring success. [2:59:41] They look at numbers above and beyond everything else. My craziest brilliant friend. [2:59:46] who's completely insane, a guy named Michael Vassar. [2:59:49] Thank you. [2:59:50] Michael Vassar had made a point to me as he often does which is really dangerous and he said when I [2:59:57] Did the world's smartest people... [2:59:59] Stop caring about... [3:00:02] their own game and their own prizes and start focusing on [3:00:06] on the prizes of the people pursuing wealth and status. [3:00:12] And he said, [3:00:13] Somehow, when scientists care about McLarens and Lamborghinis, something terrible has happened. [3:00:20] All right. [3:00:20] Boy, is that... [3:00:22] like a splinter in my mind turning over. I can't get rid of it. [3:00:26] He's right. [3:00:28] He's just right. [3:00:30] By the way, this is a guy who... [3:00:32] also told me that Dario Amidai was a really important person. I needed to pay attention to him. He was just some guy that I knew.

[3:00:39] um, [3:00:41] Vassar's point is... [3:00:44] The scientists stop having their own game with their own prizes, and so they've started caring about things that they should be completely ignoring. [3:00:52] I don't have a McLaren and I couldn't care less. [3:00:57] I do care about immortality. I do care about recognition. I do care about my name being removed from things that I've done. [3:01:04] and other people's cherry topping going on top of it. [3:01:08] quite honestly, we're a different game. We're a different species. [3:01:12] You know that... [3:01:14] That song, One Night in Bangkok, it came from a musical about chess. [3:01:20] And he says in the lyrics to that song, which we don't remember, he says... [3:01:27] I'd have something like, I have you over, I would invite you, but the queens we use would not excite you. [3:01:32] So you can go back to your massage parlors in Bangkok. The whole point is that the chess world... [3:01:37] doesn't care. [3:01:39] about who got laid. [3:01:41] Chess World cares about the evergreen game, the immortal game. What did Fisher do to Spassky? What's going on with Magnus Carlsen? [3:01:49] Thank you. [3:01:50] Somehow the science world stopped caring about our own stuff. [3:01:54] And... [3:01:56] We got... [3:01:57] to make sure that the public intellectuals are not dominated by billionaires. [3:02:02] I love these guys. [3:02:04] They're my friends. I think you're right. [3:02:06] Yeah, they're smart as hell. They wouldn't have gotten to be billionaires otherwise. But they're always talking their book.

[3:02:12] Always. [3:02:14] Look at – people are like famous libertarians and they become surveillance people. [3:02:22] Bill Gates, is he just buying farmland for – [3:02:26] He wants to make sure that we have a steady supply of food, of something. We've got to stop the addiction to billionaires as the only people we trust because at least they're rich. [3:02:40] Yeah. [3:02:40] Let's end it there. [3:02:41] I'm going to wrap this up. [3:02:43] But I appreciate you very much. This is very good. [3:02:45] Yeah, it was a good one. Great seeing you, Joe. Great seeing you, too, and I think you're the last point. [3:02:50] that should resonate with a lot of people. It's dead right. Look forward to seeing you soon, Joe. Well, maybe we'll go to another planet. Love it. Bye, everybody. [3:03:13] This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist and trust me, I know. [3:03:39] I buy one, the Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier and isn't getting more time with our four-legged

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