Talking Dateline: A Killing in Midtown

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[01:32] Hey, Lester. Hey, Andrea. Good to see you. Yeah, good to see you too. Wow, this is a riveting episode. I mean, it was... [01:40] Really good because we've all heard this story and we've seen pieces of this story, but this is the first time I've seen the story put all together. [01:50] Yeah, this story, well, it's still unfolding even as we speak. There's a trial in September, but we went back. [01:57] And trying to understand that the people at the center of this, Luigi Mangione, you've heard the name many times, the suspect who will face trial. And then, of course, the CEO himself. And Brian Thompson, of course, is center of this because he was walking across the street from his hotel to an investors conference, a big deal in his industry that was about to take place that morning. It's early in the morning. [02:22] Hard for people to understand, but midtown Manhattan is not that crowded, actually, in the 6, 7 o'clock hour as this was. So he's literally ambushed on the streets of New York. [02:35] And looking at the tapes, it's still hard to know whether Brian Thompson was aware that someone was following him, had literally jumped from the shadows. But it all plays out very quickly. These two lives of these two men that none of us knew suddenly collided in an incredible fashion. Yeah, and you see Brian's back. [02:55] to his assailant. And it seems like Brian Thompson, as you said in the piece, is walking into a trap. And then like out of a movie...

[03:03] on this surveillance video, you see this assailant lift up a gun. I mean, I froze it because I just looked at it for a few seconds and, [03:12] The assailant just standing there with this very professional-looking weapon, right? [03:18] Yeah, and you look, and many of us have seen, certainly in the movies, you know, the bad guy puts on the silencer on the gun. We talked to a detective who in his whole career never saw a silencer used in this sort of thing. So that in itself said, wow, this is professional or someone who wants to give the impression, certainly, that this is... [03:36] It's professional. Yeah, I was really surprised by that detective saying that, what was it, in his 25 years, he'd never seen a silencer, which I guess we're so used to it in TV and movies, people using these silencers that for an NYPD detective to have never had seen one. [03:55] Incredible. And of course, they later, as part of the evidence, is a gun that police say they recovered. He did apparently have in his possession. [04:04] a gun with a silencer. Yeah. Well, speaking of that gun, one of the things that sent me down the rabbit hole, Lester, was like, you know, the bullets that handwritten on them was depose, delay, deny, which is, you know, apparently the criticism of how health insurance companies handle claims. And I started looking into it because I felt like I had seen it before. And, you know, this has happened where things are written on bullets, maybe with a Sharpie, or they can even

[04:34] inscribed, you know, permanently into the ammunition. And so there was the ICE field office shooting in Dallas. The shell casings said anti-ice. The murder of Charlie Kirk. Hunters apparently would inscribe or have inscribed inspirational messages on their casings. Even back to World War II, bullets and bombs, they would write things on the ammunition. Yeah. I mean, it immediately, you know, made a statement, also immediately made it very clear [05:04] this was not about this victim's private life. This was something bigger than that. And with those cartridges, there were two of them that had been spent, had been fired. There was another one that had not been fired. But they immediately clued investigators in that this was likely over the health... the state of the healthcare system. Right. And it really... [05:24] One thing that seemed to come full circle, Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber, apparently he used to inscribe the letters FC. [05:34] into parts of his bombs, which those letters he explained stood for Freedom Club. You learned that Luigi Mangione had an interest in Ted Kaczynski. So well before Mangione was a suspect or before the murder, he lived in Hawaii. He was part of a tech community. They established a book club at one point. One of the books they read was The Manifesto by the Unabomber. [05:59] Many people subsequent to the murders have thought that maybe that pointed to a motive in this case. But we talked to a journalist who has been heavily covering the story who said that they were never able to make a linkage between that book club and the subject being Kaczynski and the murder he was later charged with.

[06:18] Yeah, but he did go on, though, to talk about Ted Kaczynski. So clearly, the Unabomber was on his mind. Yeah, and he basically concluded that the Unabomber, in this case Ted Kaczynski, got it all wrong because he hurt innocent people. So he did later talk about that in some of his writings, which do become key in this case and likely in the trial. So we know he had Kaczynski on the mind, but is that part of a motive for murder? We just don't know. [06:48] But [06:48] contradiction with Luigi Mangione. You know, he's, here he is, you know, he's traveling, like he's living in Hawaii, he's traveling to places like Japan, other places in Asia. Yeah, Thailand. Thailand, seeking spiritual enlightenment, you know, and now he's alleged to have committed this brutal crime. You know, it just feels like two different people. Yeah, there was a lot going on. We know that he had chronic back problems, and that's, [07:18] important because one of the things that he did in Hawaii was seek treatment. Someone had turned him on to a yoga instructor who promised that he could help alleviate his pain and he apparently did just that. He did visit this yoga teacher, he did receive some therapy and by accounts that we've seen, he was pleased with the results and actually started to feel much better. [07:44] Yeah, it's strange, though, when you think of someone who's...

[07:50] spiritual and light and then is accused of a crime like this. It's like it doesn't add up. And then the other thing that people kept saying was that [08:01] He didn't seem to express any hatred for the insurance companies, you know, on this journey of his. Like, he wasn't going after them or talking about them constantly. So it's like, where did it come from? We understand that at one point while he was in Thailand, he was talking to an English speaker. And the subject apparently came up of health care systems, you know, comparing against the U.S. And it sounds like it wasn't a heated discussion. [08:28] But he pointed out that, you know, that there were issues with the American health care system as compared to some of the others overseas. And keep in mind, this conversation is taking place overseas. What we have is a lot of strands in this story that start to move together. You're like, aha, here we go. Here's the motive. And boom. You know, we're left wondering still. [08:58] surveillance cameras in New York City. [09:04] Insurance is not one size fits all. [09:07] That's why drivers have trusted progressives' "name your price" tool for years. [09:12] Just tell Progressive what you want to pay. [09:15] and they'll show you coverage options that fit your budget. [09:18] Visit Progressive.com to find a car insurance rate that works for you.

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[11:09] Lester, let's take a listen to more of your interview with retired Detective Sergeant John Griffin, who really painted this picture for us of just all the cameras that are in New York City. [11:24] Every single one of these buildings probably has a camera. And a lot of these, a lot of the vehicles going by have cameras on them. I mean, it's in this, I mean, we're lucky. In this city, you can't, especially in Manhattan, you're covered. Are those used primarily as traffic cameras or just? They're for traffic, they're for events, they're for helping solve crimes. Yeah, they're for monitoring things going on. [11:48] I mean, if you know there's something going on here, like a... [11:52] like a minor demonstration that you don't want to send people to you can watch it from there and make sure everything's going all right. I mean, it's, they've got a ton of uses. For us in the investigations world, they're unbelievable. First thing you ask for now, where's the video? That's all anybody wants now. You see that little bulb under there? And that can scan this whole 360 right here. Wow. Yeah, it's, it's, it's incredible. [12:16] And like I said, before this, [12:19] We used to laugh in the homicide squad. [12:23] We said it was a lot like [12:25] deadliest catch. Once you leave port, you don't come back without fish. And they would go out for [12:33] Eight, ten hours at a time getting what they can, and then the next day do the same thing. Wow. And imagine doing that without all the help we had. You know, in a routine case, you have one or two guys doing this. That's hard to imagine. And then you have to go back and watch it. Yeah, but if it's your video, it must be easier. Our video's easier. It's so much easier. And the big thing about our video is that it's set up so you can see long stretches. So you don't have to pull the video from here.

[13:03] at that corner or two corners down. Now you hop down there and that's where you pick it up. [13:09] Imagine how many crimes must be solved in New York today. [13:13] from these cameras. I'm sure the number is huge. Yeah. Yeah. You see them up there. I mean, we're all aware of them, kind of vaguely aware. But yeah, when you start multiplying, okay, you've got city and police cameras. Now you've got every building owner has a camera. I've been in taxis now where they've got cameras. So there is a wealth of information, but someone still has to do the tedious hard work of going through it, matching it, and creating a timeline. If something [13:43] corner, a detective sitting at his desk at police headquarters can go right on and retrieve the pictures there. And then they began linking it to the pictures to the next place they see the suspect and so on and so forth. What's important here, Andrea, is that [13:58] Police say their best investigative tool in this kind of case, of course, you want to pull the cameras, but you also want to pull them in a way that you're basically working backwards. You want to know where the killer or the suspect has been, and that will help inform as to where he may go. Why is that important? Because that's how they uncovered the slip in this case. They always wait for that moment. The suspect drops his or her guard. [14:28] That was huge. And you see him smiling at one point. You also can see those eyebrows. That's what everybody was talking about, the eyebrows. And he even talks about it in this, it was like a to-do list that he had to pluck his eyebrows.

[14:58] I suppose. Yeah, and... [15:02] You know, going backwards is when the, you know, the assailant may be less on guard, right, before – [15:11] they've committed a crime versus after when you're going to be doing everything you can to hide your face, obviously. You catch me a week ago, and I'm thinking about doing this murder, but my security is not up to snuff. [15:24] Then you take me a day or hours before the murder. I'm now on guard now because I might get found out. I think that's the mentality that they want to work off of and exploit if they can, the investigators. Yeah, because you still can get away with something if you're wearing a mask, if you have a hood on. I mean, cameras, they're not x-ray cameras. They can't see through that. So you do have to keep looking and looking and looking and waiting for your suspect to slip up, which is what— [15:52] they say happened here. So obviously he has discovered Luigi Mangione in Altoona, Pennsylvania. What was happening with the McDonald's workers? Did they not want to participate yet in Dateline, or were they told not to because of... [16:08] You know, the trial coming up, what was the deal with that? I can tell you in general, this has been a very difficult story to get people to step forward. By now, I think we've established this is not a typical murder story. This is not a typical crime. [16:23] This was a case of rage, kind of a simmering rage out there that we were able to tap into about the ethics and practices of the healthcare industry. It started more than a nationwide conversation, kind of an outpouring. And people say, you know, well, of course, I'm against violence. Of course, I'm against murder. But, and it's that but that always kind of really changes the conversation. Do you remember the movie John Q with Denzel Washington?

[16:53] - I sure do. - Yeah. - Yeah. And so I'll just, [16:55] Read like really quickly. It's a devoted father. [16:58] whose young son collapses and is diagnosed with an enlarged heart. When he discovers that the family's health maintenance organization, HMO insurance policy will not cover the cost of a life-saving heart transplant and his own resources are exhausted, he takes drastic measures driven by desperation. He takes the hospital's emergency room hostage to force the medical board to put his son's name on the transplant list. And, you know, it just seemed like it just [17:25] Popped into my head that movie when I heard about this case, thinking that, like, Luigi Mangione has been done wrong by UnitedHealthcare somehow. Like, they denied his back surgery. You know, I'm making that up. But there's, like, nothing there, which is so odd. UnitedHealthcare says they never had a Luigi Mangione on their insurance rolls. It's very odd because, as I said, there are so many strands of this story that keep leading you toward a conclusion. [17:55] just kind of melts away in your mouth. [17:58] But, you know, obviously some of this will come out, maybe all of it will come out in trial. [18:04] And the question from a legal standpoint, when we talk about trial, you know, will they be able to find a jury who can set aside any issues with the health care industry? Because, you know, it's not out of the realm of possibility the defense may make this a trial, not about murder, but about the health care industry. Right. I mean, yeah, there was so much fanfare, Lester, from the very beginning.

[18:28] right like the the chase the you know searching for this the suspect um the bullets you know then finding this this [18:39] alleged shooter in the McDonald's. And even bringing him back to New York, I mean, off of that helicopter, I swear it looked like El Chapo was arriving in the city. You know, it was intense, right? And so there's all these people now who support Luigi Mangione. And you showed some of the clips, you know, from social media, free Luigi and his beautiful eyebrows, you know, [19:09] And then we have these ladies more recently outside of court [19:13] They call themselves the Mangionistas, and they actually were able to get press passes for court. [19:22] And it sparked a review of press passes. Mayor Mamdani said that they... [19:29] They probably shouldn't have had these passes, but also didn't say he was going to revoke them. But it's just another element to all of this. And that's one of the things we talked about with one of Mr. Thompson's friends and former colleagues who's just devastated that there are people who— [19:48] who thinks somehow that he may, Mr. Thompson may have deserved to be murdered. I speak in this hour, as you know, I speak to an activist who was part of the fundraising mechanism that created a legal defense fund for the killer. And this is before we knew that Mangione was going to be a suspect. This thing was started very early on. So...

[20:08] But-- So going into this, we certainly couldn't ignore that there is this-- this simmering outrage out there. At the same time, we wanted to-- [20:17] you know, show who Brian Thompson was. Family man, 50-year-old father of two, a Midwest guy who wanted to go back to Iowa. We wanted to tell part of his story and remind that, you know, there is a victim in this case and the victim, [20:33] in this case is brian thompson you know even speaking to the detectives we talk to them about how they feel about um investigating a murder in which the potential killer is being you know cheered on and they take it very seriously because as one of them pointed out you know as a as a detective we've had to knock on a lot of doors and inform people that their their loved one has has died [20:58] you know, by homicide or some other horrible occurrence. And the fact that, you know, someone's life can be cheapened in such a way, gunned down in the streets because you may not like their industry, they take very, very seriously. I tend to feel the same way with the detectives. I mean, this is what we do on Dateline. We interview families every day. [21:17] weak, you know, who have lost a loved one to murder. [21:22] And that is not lost on me. And that is a fear of mine for this country that people are glorifying murder because they don't like, as you said, the industry. I think it's wrong. Brian Thompson has two children, a wife. [21:36] a family, you know, and there's so many,

[21:40] parallels almost, I hate to say it, but between Brian Thompson and alleged killer Luigi Mangione, that they were both valedictorians. [21:49] of their high school. They were both smart. You know, they both came from these, you know, one had more privilege than the other, but it seems like they came from good families. You know, so there were some similarities there. Yeah, it's really, this is a story about how those two lives and, you know, collide in this spectacularly awful fashion. Lester, thank you so much for bringing us this story and this really fascinating conversation. [22:19] course. [22:19] And, of course, Lester will also bring you any updates, breaking news updates on this case on Dateline True Crime Weekly. Coming up after the break, Mike Nardi, Dateline producer, who produced this episode, and senior producer Allison Orr will be here to answer your social media questions. [22:49] Watch as new heights as powerful families, long-held secrets, and unexpected alliances collide. Packed with love and betrayal, this crossover event changes everything. Don't miss the Beyond the Gates and Young and the Restless crossover event. All this week on CBS and streaming on Paramount+. [23:08] There's a freedom in South Dakota.

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[25:07] and his face was on the news. Did he have a mission to do more harm? Do we know if there's any more intel on that? One thing that was interesting is that some of the video that has not been released, we've been told that it shows the suspect on a cell phone. And so there was speculation at the time that maybe he was working with someone, but there's certainly been no indication from the authorities that... [25:32] That's true. And obviously, his face was all over the place. He was recognizable enough that the people in a McDonald's in Pennsylvania recognized him. And so I'd always wondered, did his family recognize him? I have a son in his 20s. I'd recognize my son if I saw half of his face on TV. So, and we do have, there is reporting out of San Francisco that his family had filed a missing persons report. And there is reporting that the police officer who took that missing persons report recognized him. [26:02] There was contact with the family before his capture. And also, right, Mike, that the officers who recognized him from the missing persons report turned that information over to the FBI. Now, there's also no evidence that that information, having gone to the FBI, had anything to do with his capture. And, in fact, we're not even sure that that information – obviously, his name was never made public. We don't even know if it made it to the NYPD who was helping with the investigation. So – [26:29] There is, you know, people did recognize him. Yeah, those eyebrows are everything, right? Okay, this is a comment from Renee Ebert.

[26:39] Well, I was hoping to learn more about Luigi, but he clearly remains a mystery. I gave up watching the Knicks for Dateline, and I am happy I did. Very well done. His trial will be fascinating. Fascinating. [26:51] So I didn't work on this story, but I did have a conversation with a friend last night who went to the same school as Luigi. And he said it is extremely... [27:02] wealth at this school. And I'm not saying Luigi is extreme wealth, just... [27:06] there are kids at this school of extreme wealth. And my friend also told me that, you know, the family is somewhat well-known in Baltimore and, you know, [27:18] He said that people see Luigi's grandfather as having done a lot of good. [27:24] in the area. [27:26] Yeah, I think that certainly matches, Andrea, with what we learned about the Mangione family. From what we understand, his grandfather sort of started with nothing and sort of built some businesses. And from there, the Mangione family owns a number of different businesses that they operate. And including healthcare. [27:45] Healthcare, right, assisted living facilities. And I think that... [27:49] I think it's certainly fair that we report that the family is wealthy as business owners and they were able to send – [27:57] Luigi Mangione to this really prestigious school full of the wealth that you describe. Yeah. These are among the wealthiest kids in the Baltimore area. [28:05] Yeah. And whether Luigi was among the wealthiest of among the wealthiest? We don't think so. But it is interesting questions because the crime has brought up all of this angst in society about the cost of health care. And yet you're looking at this person who's become a symbol of this, and it does not make sense that he personally in his personal life would have been, you know, somebody with medical debt like so many people in America are saddled with. So it's an interesting question, and maybe we'll learn more about it at trial.

[28:35] What's interesting with Luigi Mangione is that he's going to have to go on trial for state court and federal court. [28:42] We're starting with state court. Yeah, so the state trial is going to happen first, and this is the murder charge that he's facing. The federal charges are stalking, but really the focus is going to be on this state case because this is the murder case. This is the trial for that. And what's interesting is his defense team includes members of the same defense team that just recently defended Sean Combs in federal trial and defended Harvey Weinstein on his retrial. Both of those cases were considered defense wins. [29:12] Sean Combs was only convicted of lesser charges. The Harvey Weinstein recent trial ended in a mistrial, which is seen as a victory for the defense. So we should expect something very interesting from them. All right. Allison and Mike, thank you so much for bringing us this episode along with Lester and for coming on today to talk Dateline. Thanks, Andrea. Okay, thanks, Andrea. [29:42] or leave us a voicemail at [redacted phone] for a chance to be featured right here. And you can watch the video version of this Talking Dateline on Peacock or YouTube, or subscribe to the NBC News app. Plus, Keith has a brand new podcast series you don't want to miss. It's called Five Miles From Home, about a high school student's disappearance after track practice in a small Nevada casino town.

[30:12] rage and unimaginable betrayal. You can listen to the first two episodes now wherever you get your podcasts. For early access to subsequent episodes and to listen to all Dateline podcasts ad-free, subscribe to Dateline Premium. We'll see you Fridays on Dateline on NBC. [30:37] More people, more devices, more AI. [30:43] The way we live today takes a lot of energy. Wind and solar are powerful, but not always available. That's where natural gas comes in, with reliable energy whenever it's needed. Companies like Energy Transfer work behind the scenes, safely transporting these resources to facilities across the country through a network of underground pipelines. [31:03] Learn more at ItTakesEnergy.com.