#2418 - Chris Williamson

[00:00] Joe Rogan podcast check it out the Joe Rogan experience train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day. [00:14] Feel a bit less shit about myself to stave off death. Well doesn't it do something for your mind? Doesn't it help you? Yeah, of course it of course it does but when you compare it with [00:25] Life and death. [00:26] There's a little bit of a difference. Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. [00:30] Yeah, there's definitely a difference, but just for mental health, that's the main reason to do it for me, is mental health. [00:38] It's such a difference between not doing it and doing it. I'm going to be like two different, totally different people. You got notes on that thing or something? Always. You got to get one of these babies. A little kickstand jammies. Those are the shit. Oh, sexy. Look at that. Sexy, sexy. Yeah. All right. [00:53] All right. Encourages you to waste your time watching YouTube videos. Yeah, without having to hold it. Because it props up, yeah. You feel like a fool sitting there staring at your camera, holding it in your hand. I always said, like, if there was a drug that made people stare at their hand for six hours a day, everybody would be like, oh, my God, was this really a problem in this country? People were just staring at their hands. [01:12] Well, we looked at that last time that we were on. We had the photo of that guy, that artist that had taken images of people looking at their phones. Yes, with no phone in there. And then removed the phones. [01:24] It's such a crazy thing we're doing. And now, of course, there's AR glasses that are eventually going to put whatever TikTok feed in, like, one eye where you're watching someone in the other eye. Have you ever tried those? I've messed around with them a little bit.

[01:42] released yet. They were really interesting. And you move a cursor around with your eyeballs, and you can do things with your fingers. You can pinch and spread things and stuff with your fingers and play games with your fingers. [01:55] You can like, it's not quite as responsive as you'd like it to be, but it's very beta. You know, it's pretty cool. It is pretty cool. But also we're losing humanity. We're going to, we're going to be taken in. We're going to incorporate with the machine. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I think a lot of people feel like that would be a better version of the life that they have. And that's the saddest thing that people of older generations look at young guys and girls and how much time they spend online. [02:25] And they think, this is ridiculous. Why are they caring so much about what is occurring on the Internet? But they don't realize... [02:32] People spend more time on screens than they do asleep. [02:36] So the digital world is the real world. [02:38] For these people, like the digital world is more real than the real world is. Ooh, I didn't think of it that way. There are a lot of people that do spend more time on screens than they do asleep. [02:50] That's really common. I like to balance that out. I like to spend half as much time on my phone as I do asleep. [02:59] Well, that would be a good way to enforce it, right? You have to – you log how much sleep time you've had. Yeah, so I'm going to start sleeping 12 hours a day so I can get my solid six hours wasting. It's quite a resource if you think about it, like a lack of an appreciation of your resource because the resource of your time and your attention, it's very valuable.

[03:20] And you can convert it into all sorts of amazing skills and information and knowledge and change your whole life. Or you can just stare at stupid shit all day long. It's so compelling, that dude. It's been designed by the – [03:36] most... [03:36] profitable companies on the planet with the smartest behavioral scientists in history. Like, it's an unfair fight. It really is an unfair fight. And that's why... [03:45] Sort of. [03:46] You could not do it though. Oh, you need to lean in. But it's like, there is way more willpower you need to use in order to be able to not than just whatever the course of natural human history is or natural human behavior. Yeah. [04:03] You can dye the Venice River green. [04:07] That's what happens when you don't have enough phone battery. I said that to Chris today. Greta Thunberg, she dyed the Venice Canal's green to protest what, a lack of action and climate change? Yeah, pullback. [04:24] a call to pull back carbon fuel in Europe. And they didn't just do it in Venice. They did it in 10 cities around Italy. But Venice has obviously got this gorgeous waterway. It's an entire city built on water. Yeah. [04:39] Bro. Yeah, that's hard to see how ugly it is. Jamie, I could send you a video of it because I sent Chris a video. It's just like, how much attention do you need, lady? Okay? Stop.

[04:54] Sky News Australia refers to her as a Swedish doom goblin. [05:01] Sky News is the one that's weirdly pro-Republican American politics. Super right wing. It's like, who's funding that? There's no way that there's that much of an appetite in Australia for American politics. So that's what it looks like. That's disgusting. I was there this summer. It's fucking beautiful. [05:24] and so interesting and to have this self-important twat. [05:28] pour a bunch of green dye into that water, you should go to jail for that. You're ruining this experience for thousands and thousands of people, not just the ones who live in that amazing place, but the ones who get to visit. Someone figured out a way to make... [05:47] a whole city by shoving pylons into the ground and they did it a long time ago it's all wood the whole city is stacked up on wood they take these wood poles they shove them into the grass a specific type of wood that doesn't rot when it gets wet and waterlogged it actually hardens I forget what kind of what it is they I watched this whole thing on it but [06:10] I mean, it's very stable. I mean, sometimes they get some flooding. Like one time we were there and the lobby of this place was flooded. It does flood. But it's also so fucking beautiful. And the architecture is so amazing. It's such a gorgeous place. And it just relaxes you instantly when you're there. You're like, wow, I just want to have an espresso and eat some pasta and just chill out. It's one of the most beautiful places I've ever been. And this fucking dummy decides to just pour green dye.

[06:40] dye did you put in there? And what kind of an effect is that going to have on life? So they claimed that it was environmentally safe. I don't know how environmentally safe anything of that green color can be. But yeah, what was it? 48 hour ban and $170 fine. That's it? [06:57] Yeah. Wow. You should go to jail for a night. I think about this a lot, man. [07:03] Thank you. [07:04] In some ways, I understand why the rhetoric gets more and more inflammatory. So if you care about an issue, if you really, really think that this issue is important and people don't listen. [07:18] you start to shout a bit louder. Right. And then you shout a bit louder, and then you shout a bit louder. The British are coming. The British are coming. You know who first said that? Wasn't Paul Revere. Bonnie Blue. Who's that? [07:30] She is the lady that slept with 1,057 men in a day. Oh, that poor lady. Yeah. So people don't listen. Do you ever see Don't Look Up, that movie on Netflix? That's very funny, by the way. I missed that joke because I didn't know who that was. [07:45] Jamie got it from over there, even with a toothache. I'm kind of proud that I can't recognize her name, though. [07:48] Honestly, I'll take that. It's probably a good sign. [07:52] People don't. So don't look up that film with Leonardo DiCaprio a couple of years ago. Remember, it was like an asteroid coming in. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's a funny movie, right? Half funny, but kind of it's supposed to be a comment on the impending doom of climate change. Let's talk about Service Titan, the AI for the trades. The trades are the backbone of this country.

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[10:06] This summer, the Cup is taking over the U.S., and only DraftKings has you covered every step of the way. Follow every group stage upset, every knockout round thriller, every stoppage time moment that flips the whole tournament. Sweat all the big matches you love in real time with a seamless experience built for the world's biggest stage. No matter where you're watching, you're always connected and in the game with one app. [10:36] with code rogan spend five bucks to get 200 in rewards within 21 days that's code rogan in partnership with draft kings the crown is yours gambling problem call 877-8-hope-and-why or text hope and why 467-369 21 and over new york only eligibility restrictions apply bonus bets expire seven days after issuance for additional terms and responsible gaming resources cdkng.co slash audio limited time offer [11:03] Nobody's listening, right? Yeah, they're not correct. That's the problem. You know, who are those two gentlemen that we had in recently, Jamie? [11:11] The guy from MIT and the other guy from – was he from Yale or Stanford? Where was he from? Anyway, these two – [11:18] Brilliant scientists who have analyzed the data, and one of them was going over the actual understanding the equations that you would need to understand in order to really be able to calculate what is having an effect on the climate and how many different factors there are. And all of them working synergistically in some weird, unexplainable way.

[11:48] where it's always done this glaciation and then the glaciers, they recede and then you get higher ocean levels. It's like constant. Every 12,500 plus years, it goes up and down and up and down and it never stays static ever. It's never static. And the real fear is not global warming. [12:08] The real fear is global cooling. Why? Global cooling kills everything. And we got that close at one point in history to having such a low oxygen level at this point on this planet and such a low carbon dioxide level because there was no plant food. Right. That these fucking plants almost died. We almost lost all life on this planet. We've gone like a few degrees from that happening. [12:35] This is the glaciers are fucking scary. Ice ages are scary. When it gets warm, you just move. And I know that sucks if you're living in a city of 20 million people, but it hasn't happened yet. And they've been talking about it forever. That fucking stupid movie, An Inconvenient Truth, was wrong about everything. He should have to give back every fucking penny he made from that movie. You were wrong about everything. [13:05] shit out of everybody and you were 100% wrong. One of the problems I think people have is if you really care about something and you're convinced, whether your conviction is incorrect or not, you're convinced by it. So what you do, you say a thing, people don't listen. Right. Say it a bit louder, people still don't listen. Right. Say it a bit louder again, people still aren't listening. And the problem is it's a misunderstanding about what...

[13:27] that compels and convinces other humans. What we think is if people aren't listening, if I shout louder, they're going to pay attention. What we don't realize is that actually turns everybody off. Because if you just see someone throwing soup over a Van Gogh painting, turning the canals of Venice green, gluing themselves to the M25 in London and stopping people from being able to get to work, [13:51] like it gets attention, but you're not looking for attention. You're looking for conviction. You're trying to compel people to believe the thing that you believe. [13:59] And I think that it does the opposite. And I understand why it's so seductive, because you think... [14:05] making [14:06] It's cool to your own side to do something flaming sword-wielding truth-teller, I'm going to charge through and look at how cool it is. [14:14] But... [14:15] making somebody feel stupid or embarrassed or inconvenienced or upset is, [14:19] is a really bad way to change minds. So I think... [14:22] If people really care... [14:25] about changing minds, they need to realize, and assuming that they think that they're correct, they need to realize that intellectual chasm from where they are and where other people are. And you go, okay, I'm going to take you one step at a time. So even if you were to accept that the science and all of the stuff that the climate change people believe in is accurate, I still think [14:44] that the strategies that they're using aren't going to be effective because I think it turns more people off. Right. And they're scolding. [14:51] They're shrieking, scolding, and they're not the type of people that you want to talk to, so you avoid them. Ho, ho. I like that. Looking down from on home. Looking down from on home. Yeah, it's my British heritage.

[15:04] It doesn't cause you to feel inclined to support them. The opposite. It causes you to want to burn tires. I want to buy spray paint, fucking hairspray, just blow it by my car. Have you heard of the Cassandra complex? You know what this is? No. Fucking brilliant, dude. [15:21] In ancient Greek mythology, Cassandra is given the gift of being able to see the future. [15:27] by Apollo, and then she rejects his advances, so he curses her. [15:31] And he says that for the rest of time, you're still going to be able to see the future. [15:34] But people aren't going to believe you. [15:36] So she foresees [15:38] the downfall of Troy. She warns everybody, "People don't listen." [15:43] Try Burns anyway. [15:44] And it's basically being right. [15:47] but early. [15:48] So Rachel Carson, she wrote that book, Silent Spring, 1962. It's about DDT, environmental epidemics. Mm-hmm. [15:56] She gets mocked by scientists, castigated by everybody, but her work [16:01] led to the banning of DDT. And what year was this? 1962. Interesting. Ignis Sammelweis, like 1840s, he realizes that doctors are transmitting childbed fever from corpses to mothers because they're not washing their hands. So he begs his colleagues to start adopting hand washing, and he gets mocked by academia. He dies in an asylum. [16:24] He dies in an asylum. That's how badly he's treated. Germ theory of disease gets a couple of decades later, gets proven. Edward Snowden, who you've spoken to, like some people saw him as a traitor.

[16:35] Some people saw him as a truth teller. But I think everybody had a bit of, really? Is that what's going on? [16:40] A few years later, it turns out, yep, the government is spying on you. Yeah, 100%. And this Cassandra complex, so if somebody ever says, I'm a Cassandra, I'm feeling like Cassandra today. I foresee this thing. You don't. You're not listening to me. It's a big deal. [16:56] And the problem is the difference between somebody being a righteous Cassandra with the ability to see the future. [17:03] and just being a crazy person who's been convinced by [17:06] bad data or like [17:10] perverse incentives, [17:13] It's very hard to work out which one you are. Perverse incentives is the real word because here's the thing, folks. We do have a horrible impact on the environment. It's factual. It's measurable. You can go see it. [17:25] there's many third world countries that have rivers that are completely clogged with garbage and plastic. That's real. [17:33] If you're not trying to stop that but you're railing about carbon, well, carbon is a weird thing because carbon is essential to plant life. There's more green on earth today than there was 100 years ago, and that's because of our carbon emissions. That is an inconvenient truth. All right? Fuck Al Gore. That's an inconvenient truth. So carbon is a part of the – is it good that we're burning stuff and putting it in the atmosphere? No, I do not think it is. No, I'm not arguing that. [18:03] that our impact on the environment that is tangible and disgusting is pollution. That's the impact on the environment. And if you're really thinking about our carbon footprint and carbon taxes and carbon incentives, you've got to follow the money. Like what is happening here? Well, there's a bunch of green initiatives, and those green initiatives get funding, and they get funding to the tune of billions and billions of dollars.

[18:33] Like someone just pulled up some – there's a nonprofit about animals and they just released what a fucking scam it is. There's so many of these nonprofits where the vast majority of the money is going to salaries. Like most of the money is going to salaries. And there's a tiny fraction of that money that gets allocated to whatever that cause is. Which is – [18:54] why it justifies people who work for the organization to sustain the organization's existence. 100%. 100%. But there's no data. Here's the thing. All of their predictions, all of the climate change predictions are totally inaccurate. Every single one by all the doomsayers. So you'd think they would course correct. You would think they would say, okay, no one's arguing that [19:19] The particulates that get emitted into the atmosphere by coal plants are not terrible for everyone. No one's arguing that – [19:29] glyphosate is good for you. No one's arguing that the poisons we're putting in rivers and streams, no one's arguing that's good for you. The stuff that gets into groundwater, no one says that's good. [19:40] That's our real problem. Our real problem is pollution. It's fucking terrible. There's a real problem with waste. There's a real problem with landfills. All that's real. This carbon thing is a weird one. [19:54] It's a weird one to concentrate on solely because it seems to have an effect on the atmosphere. It has an effect on the temperature of Earth, but not what they're saying. Can you think of a perverse incentive other than people just want to keep their jobs? Is there something else? It's people keeping their jobs. It's righteousness. It's virtue signaling.

[20:13] And it's also the extraordinary amount of money that gets put into green initiatives. It also helps people campaign. When you're campaigning, if you say climate change is real, we will follow the science. Oh, thank God you get my vote. [20:32] That's what happens. And these fucking dumbasses just fall for it every time. It's not that it's a real impending doom scenario. That's not real. [20:43] not real. [20:45] It's not real. [20:46] But what is real is humans' impact on Earth. So you've got to figure out why is this one thing, why are they concentrating so much on carbon when it's not a measurable thing? It's not a thing where you're seeing this hugely detrimental effect by this one action that we have. Well, because someone's trying to make money. It's it. No one's doing it for your own good. There's not a fucking single person on Earth that's involved in any of these big causes that's really concerned about us. [21:15] no they're all making money and they're all made in if they're not [21:19] making money other than their salary. If your salary is a million dollars a year to run money, [21:26] A charity. Maybe that charity is fucking horse shit. [21:31] You know? [21:32] Because if you make a million dollars a year, you're rich as fuck. This episode is brought to you by Happy Dad Hard Seltzer. A nice cold happy dad is low carbonation, gluten-free, and is easy to drink. No bloating, no nonsense. When you're watching a football game or you're golfing, watching a fight with your boys or out on the lake, these moments call for a cold happy dad. People are drinking all these seltzers and skinny cans that are loaded with sugar.

[22:02] in a normal-sized can. You can buy Happy Dad on the GoPuff app and your local liquor and grocery store, including Walmart, [22:10] Kroger, Total Wine, and Circle K. And you can't decide on a flavor? Grab a variety pack. Lemon, lime, watermelon, pineapple, and wild cherry. They also have a great flavor in collaboration with Death Row Records and Snoop Dogg. They have their new lemonade coming out as well. Visit happydad.com for a limited time offer and use code ROGAN to buy one Happy Dad trucker hat and get one free. Enjoy a cold Happy Dad. Must be of legal drinking age. Please drink responsibly. [22:40] Bad hard seltzer. Tea and lemonade is a malt alcohol located in Orange County, California. Well, the argument would be in order to get somebody of the standard that you need to run this charity at the level that it needs to be run at, you need to give a competitive salary. What an amazing job they're doing worth 95 percent of the money goes to overhead. What an amazing job you've done in having zero. Please show me your efficiency plans. The blueprint. [23:10] any of your air quotes science stories [23:13] that you're pointing to that's showing these prediction models, all their prediction models are wrong. And they always quote things that are wrong, like storms are stronger, they're more common. No, you're just looking at a strong storm. If you look overall, there's always been strong storms. They're totally unpredictable. Have you had Alex Epstein on? Do you know him? No, I don't know. Have we had him on? The moral case for fossil fuels. Oh, okay. Interesting dude. He has, like, one of the most interesting stats that I learned from him

[23:43] by 98% [23:46] over the last century. Yeah. So one of the things that people don't consider when they look at the cost of – [23:53] energy and energy production is that [23:56] You need to be able to protect more people are killed from heat than are killed from cold. And you need to protect from heat by using energy. And if you're going to produce cheap energy, some byproducts are going to be spat out into the atmosphere. But the impact of the creation of the energy is way more effective at increasing human longevity than the side effect of the energy being made. That makes sense. Totally rational. Yeah. It seems like that would make sense. I've had I've had Richard Betts, director of the IPCC, intergovernmental panel on climate change on the show. [24:26] from our world in data. Like I've really tried to get a good balance on all of this stuff. But [24:32] Alex's position... [24:34] in that area, which is, it's a very luxury belief to hold. [24:38] to talk about how green we must be in the West when you have access to [24:44] unlimited energy. I think a billion people worldwide don't have access to reliable electricity. Like half a billion people are still using wood and dung. [24:53] in order to be able to produce their electricity. That was the data that he showed me the last time we spoke. That means that if you've got a baby, [24:59] that's on a ventilator in a newborn baby that needs to be put on. Like, [25:04] That baby dies. [25:05] That baby dies because that particular country does not have access to clean water. [25:10] to cheap and reliable energy. Cleanness does not matter for these people. Yeah, I've heard that argument that the best result worldwide would be to increase the power supply to all these third world countries. And then you would have this ability to start manufacturing, doing a bunch of different things that we associate with the negative aspects of the West. You know, the negative aspects of the West that cause pollution, that cause all these different things. The problem is electricity is a real bastard to try and move.

[25:39] I think the entire grid has got eight minutes of battery backup. Ten minutes of battery backup. It's so little and it's so cumbersome and you lose it as you transport it further. Dude, I get it. I really believe that existential risks, climate change included, are things that humans should pay attention to. But if you were to rank, I think it's a big thing [25:59] Toby Ord wrote this great book called The Precipice, and he is from the Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford. [26:06] the best researchers in the world. He got them to rank what are the most dangerous existential risks to humans. And it's a one in 10,000 chance over the next century. [26:16] coming from climate change. It's one in six [26:19] from AI or one in 10 from AI, one in 10 from engineered pandemics, like one in 30 from natural pandemics. There's so many other huge issues that are really pressing. I'm not saying that climate change isn't a priority. [26:33] I'm saying that if you were to rank the priorities, it actually starts to move pretty far down. And when you think... [26:39] If people are worried about the future of the world, they have... [26:42] a worried about the future of the world budget. [26:45] to spend. Almost all of that is going on climate change. Jamie, can you try and get up? It's a chart by Toby Ord. It's just called, if you search like the precipice chart, Toby Ord can bring it up. [26:59] How much attention is being paid to [27:01] all of these other things, [27:03] How much attention is being paid? Nuclear war, I guess, gets a little bit of attention, but slightly less so now. But natural pandemics, engineered pandemics, AGI, are...

[27:13] These are big deals, and I worry that a lot of attention has been focused onto one actually relatively inconsequential, at least in the immediate term. [27:23] No, go back, do a Google search for me. [27:28] Top left. [27:30] That's it. [27:32] So nuclear war, one in 1,000. Climate change, one in 1,000. Other environmental damage, one in 1,000. Engineered pandemics, one in 30. [27:40] Unaligned artificial intelligence, one in ten. [27:44] the total risk is one in six, but [27:46] Climate change is one in a thousand over the next hundred years. A stellar explosion, there you go. One in, what's that, a billion? [27:53] That's what we need. I don't like that one. That one scares the shit out of me. I remember a documentary I watched back in the day that was about hypernovas. And when they first started measuring these gamma bursts in space, they thought that maybe alien races were at war with each other. [28:09] Because there's this enormous burst of energy and they realize it's stars going hypernova and how many of them do it all over the universe because the universe is so big. And there's just a single beam of like a death ray that gets sent out across the universe. Just unimaginable power. And it happens all the time. It's happening all the time in the sky. [28:31] And if it happens anywhere near you, it just takes out the whole solar system, takes out everything. If it happens in neighboring solar systems, it takes us out.

[28:43] Takes out everything. Yeah, you're fucked. Wow. If that's not a justification for just living your life and getting the fuck on with it and not coloring the Venice Canal green. I don't know what it is. Well, it's the thing that gets you attention, unfortunately. That's really what all this is about. Send her back to Israel. They'll give her attention. They gave her some great attention. [29:06] I'm kind of obsessed with this idea of toxic compassion, which I think is what you're talking about. Yeah. [29:13] and [29:13] of, like... [29:15] short-term emotional comfort. [29:18] over everything else. And I remember Elon was talking a couple of years ago. Someone had accused him of contributing to climate change, so on and so forth. And he says, I think I've done more to reduce climate change than any other human on the planet. [29:32] that if you look at the EV revolution being started by Tesla plus everything else from a technology perspective that we're doing, I think that there's an argument to be made that I've – [29:40] had a more positive impact [29:42] on the future of the climate than any other human. He said, "What I'm interested in [29:47] is the reality of doing good. [29:50] not appearing good. [29:51] and not appearing to do good while doing bad. [29:54] And this... [29:56] The opportunity people have [29:58] to be able to look like they're doing good while not doing it. [30:03] is exactly where this toxic compassion thing leaks in. So for instance, [30:06] People will proclaim the body weight. [30:09] has no impact on health over a long duration, even if this causes overweight individuals to not take their health as seriously and literally die sooner. But we're here. Joe, you don't understand. We're trying to be inclusive here. We're trying to be understanding of what's going on with these people. If someone was to say that a male athlete has no advantage in a sporting competition because, Joe, we're trying to be inclusive.

[30:39] done at the exclusion [30:41] of female athletes [30:42] People are prepared to... [30:44] to show... They're prepared to do whatever is needed to appear good. Yes. Yes. [30:51] And the alternative, which it makes complete sense, who wants to do good while looking bad? [30:57] Right. [30:58] The thing you're saying is so important. Yeah. [31:01] They will sacrifice everything to appear... [31:03] that they're doing good. [31:05] Because that's really what they're worried about, and that is all stemming at least in part – I should say not stemming, but certainly accentuated by the social media world that we're living in now because everyone has this opportunity to appear like they're something other than they are. [31:21] They're using filters. They're standing in front of a leased car. There's all the above. They're doing things. They're wearing cheap fake jewelry. They're trying to look like something they're not, and there's a culture of that, and there's also a culture that gets – well, I'm not one of those because I don't care about material goods, but I'm really interested in climate change. [31:51] It's a psychological game that people are playing with themselves. They try to appear that they're special and to be in competition or in battle with the other side. But if you're in battle with people that are saying – [32:07] Hey, none of these models are correct. Hey, none of these predictions have come to bear. Zero. Not a single one where they say the sea level is going to rise. There's going to be no more Miami. Nothing. Not a fucking thing has happened. Like you're wrong. OK, so we need to figure out what's right.

[32:37] Can't. Well, what about all these predictions? Well, they're wrong. Well, what about that movie that got everybody – well, it was totally inaccurate. Okay, well, you can't use that on your side anymore. I never saw that movie. Ah, so bad. What were the claims? An inconvenient – let's find out. Put into perplexity what the incorrect – I was already asking, what did it get right and what did it get wrong? Yeah, what did it say? That's typing it up right now. I guarantee you they didn't get nothing wrong. [33:07] Or they didn't get nothing right? Do you want to know which one you want to start with? Right or wrong? The predictions for catastrophic events. What did it get wrong about the predictions for catastrophic events? [33:19] Predictions that were incorrect. Rapid sea level rise. 20 feet. The film depicted a potential sea level rise of up to 20 feet, 6 meters, in the near future from the collapse of Greenland or West Antarctic ice sheets. [33:37] support this happening imminently current rates are much slower even with acceleration of [33:42] reaching 20 feet would take many centuries. Another one, Mount Kilimanjaro, glacier melt caused by global warming. Goal attributed the shrinking of Kilimanjaro's glaciers mainly to global warming, but later research points to other major causes like sublimation and reduced snowfall, unrelated primarily to temperature. Impression of imminent chaos. The film often implies that catastrophic outcomes like rapid ice heap collapse

[34:12] when in reality such processes are expected to take much longer, often centuries or more. [34:19] And then legal findings. A UK court found nine errors of exaggerations in the film... [34:26] mostly involving a lack of clarity on time scales or oversimplified attributions like Kilimanjaro. [34:33] Overall, climate scientists judged an inconvenient truth as mostly accurate with its projections, particularly in broad trends, but criticized its presentation for occasionally exaggerating the speed and certainty of some changes. Well, I think this is... Yeah, well, this is the thing. It's most... It's climate scientists judged it. I'd like to keep this climate hustle going on. So, well, they were mostly accurate. We do have a sincere problem. Stop putting a British accent on when you do that. Believe it to me. Stop putting a British accent on when you do that. That's not even British. That's like a fake British guy. That's like a posh shithead from Connecticut. [35:03] thing. But you're right. The lack of scrutiny that people have of their behavior, the distance between our opinions and our deeds, never been greater. That's the internet. And what it means is you're allowed to do good [35:15] while appearing bad and do bad while appearing good. And it's way easier to do bad or to just not research or and it's [35:23] It's significantly harder if you're like, I'm going to go out, try and invent something, try and push against an idea or an ideology or a campaign for a movement that I think is really, really important. [35:36] And people are going to say that I'm doing something mean or people are going to call me names for doing it. There's no incentive to do it. Why would someone go? Why would somebody do that? And I think that's what Elon's point is. Right. What I'm interested in is doing good, not the appearance of it.

[35:48] And I see a lot of people who are doing bad while appearing good. Well, you know, I think through no fault of their own, young people are indoctrinated into this world when they start going to college that you have to be active. And to be an activist is to be a good person, to be involved in these campus activities is a good thing. And there's also a tribal aspect to it. You're on a tribe of people that are on the right side of history. These are the people that are kind and compassionate unless you disagree with them. [36:18] of the people that are, they trust the science unless it's inconvenient. And these are the people that, you know, you want to be in the educated minority. You want to be the people that get it. And you want to, it's very important that you use your voice. [36:33] You know, and so they think they're being good people. And I get that. And I understand that. But it's being weaponized against you. And it's probably not even funded by legitimate people. It's most likely there's at least some funding by some foreign entities that are just trying to sow discord and make sure that everybody hates everybody. That'd be a wonderful way to take down any country, right, to make it feel as if it was coming from inside. [37:03] There was a thing recently with ChatGPT where they found out that these entities in China were using ChatGPT to argue about USA shutdown. Like they were just – they ran all these social media accounts. Did you see the Twitter account thing where you can see where the accounts are based? Yes. I know. Bro. One of the ones that is like a fan account of the JRE. People thought it was me forever. And I was like, I didn't correct it.

[37:33] I made it say parody accounts. It says either commentary account or parody account or whatever. Fan run account. Just so you don't think it's me because people do think it's me. It's in Asia. [37:44] So someone in Asia is doing that, allegedly, unless he's got a VPN. I mean, you could. Hardworking Asian supporting the Joe Rogan podcast. Well, you could, right? That's the question. How do they know where you're from if you sign up? This episode is brought to you by Traeger Grills. If you enjoy food, and I mean really good food, Traeger is a game changer. This isn't just a grill. It's the ultimate way to cook outdoors, delivering unbeatable wood-fired flavor, [38:14] fuel everything you grill, smoke, or bake. That's it. Just wood and fire and flavor. And what's truly wild is how easy it is. Just set the temp, load the grill, and let Traeger handle the rest. Grill steaks, smoked ribs, even baked pizza, all on one grill. If you're into fire, flavor, and doing things right, check out Traeger Grills. [38:38] This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. [38:49] Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know. I buy one, the Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it.

[39:19] meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier. And isn't getting more time with our four-legged best friends something every dog owner wants? The answer to that is yes, obviously. So try the farmer's dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food. [39:47] Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only. [40:00] I don't know. I certainly know that... [40:05] Assuming that you're on the right side of history, [40:08] especially if you're in a big group, is often a bit of a dangerous position to be in. So that Cassandra complex thing that I was talking about before, sometimes people might say, [40:19] It's your duty, if you believe in a thing, to stand firm. [40:23] You should make your case known. You know, you're Ignaz Sammelweis. You know about the germ theory of disease. You're Rachel Carson. You know about the impact of DDT. You're Edward Snowden. You know about the surveillance that's going on. There's a really wonderful example, the comparison between Copernicus and Galileo. So Copernicus in the 1500s, he... [40:42] begins to realize that the Earth might not be the center of the solar system, let alone the universe. And he has enough evidence to justify it, but he waits until his deathbed to actually sort of whisper out his great work, which is the revolution of us, this work that he made. And he does it on his deathbed, presumably to avoid the wrath of the church. Now, some sort of hardline freedom fighting, you should do it. Don't listen to the man. Don't back down.

[41:12] would say, well, that's a cowardly thing to do. You knew what the truth was and you didn't stand by it. [41:16] A hundred years later, Galileo comes along. He sees the moons of Jupiter, sees the faces of Venus, sees the pockmarks on the surface of the moon. And he realizes that the heliocentric model, this like Copernican revolution is true. [41:31] proclaims it from the rooftops. [41:33] What happens to him? House arrest. He gets put under house arrest. He gets forced to recant under the threat of torture and spends the rest of his life under house arrest. So what you have here, and I fucking love this example so much. I think it's so cool. It's two guys, 100 years apart, with the same realization. And the justification for the first one not saying what he didn't say loudly is the treatment of the second. [41:57] I think it's like just this perfect explanation of irony. You know what I mean? Like it's so perfect. Yeah. And you go – [42:04] Well, the main issue that I have with, like, basically being right and early often feels a lot like being wrong. And if you make a... [42:14] An example of somebody [42:16] in that way [42:17] It is... [42:18] Basically, you're saying if you step out of line too far, [42:22] This is what's going to happen to you. And it causes people who are trying to move conceptual inertia forward. We're trying to do research. I'm trying to assess whether or not this is actually the way that the world should be. [42:33] It causes them to be more Copernicus, not more Galileo. And I think that's... [42:40] That is not what you would want in a civilization that's trying to continue to make progress. You would want to be accepting of new ideas and you would want to encourage them as opposed to castigating people. Do you think that social media and the influence of other people's opinions, it makes someone more likely to –

[43:00] Be able to think for themselves or less likely, like more likely to be able to examine preconceived notions, recognize like, oh, my God, maybe I'm biased or maybe it's just like a group bias that I've accepted because of all the people around me. [43:14] And... [43:15] I think this is wrong, and this is what I think is really going on. Do you think it encourages that kind of thinking or discourages it? I think it certainly encourages groupthink, very much so. But both, right? It would open up the opportunity for some people with a very unique psychological profile to be able to step back against it. Black helicopters. Yeah, there's a few guys out there I can think of. [43:45] I think on average what you're seeing is basically this huge, big swath of people, for the first time ever, [43:51] you're able to aggregate just how much support or criticism something has. Yeah. You know, this is what like to dislike ratios are. This is what upload to down votes are. Right. Right. And I think that that that causes people. Most people don't have to do the thinking of coming up with an original opinion. I'm sure that most of mine aren't original. But given the fact that doing the original thinking is hard. [44:14] Most of the culture war is actually two armies of puppets being ventriloquized by a handful of actual thinkers. Most people are just being brought along and pushed along by people who came up with an idea. And they're assuming, well, we've done, we know this for a fact. Well, it's interesting because both sides know for a fact the thing that the other side says is a lie.

[44:33] That can't be true. [44:34] See, I get the sense that it causes people to adhere to the crowd. [44:41] More [44:42] more than they would have done previously. And you also have to think that if you're spending that much time on it, like six hours a day, it's one of the primary influences of your life. [44:50] probably more so than any other media in the past, because it was very rare as a child that you would listen to six hours of the news. You wouldn't really be indoctrinated into six hours of whatever the latest cultural dilemma was or the latest social issue was. You wouldn't get that much of it. You'd get people talking about it like normal people do during the day, or maybe you'd be talking about a newspaper article you read, but you're not getting six hours of it all day long. But now we are, at least six hours. [45:20] Let's find that out. What's the average number of hours an 18-year-old kid is on social media? I would guess it's at least – social media, maybe four. Or their phone. Let's just say their phone. Screen time. Screen time, at least six. [45:34] Probably more. Yeah. At least six. Probably more. And the mad thing to consider here is your parasocial relationships. People – think about this. People will listen to your show and listen to my show more than they see their parents. Oh, yeah. By a huge margin. Huge margin. Yeah, if you saw your parents that much, it would be kind of creepy. [45:54] The average screen time for 18-year-olds, seven to eight hours of total screen time per day is common. [46:01] Though it varies a lot by person and country. Okay, what country has the least amount of screen usage?

[46:07] Would you want to discount school time too? Because aren't they on screens technically in school? [46:13] You're asking phone time, I guess, right? Yeah, I think it's personal phones they're talking about. Are they on screens? I've noticed it's counting my laptop open in my screen time because I'm connected to the same phone. [46:25] like iOS system. So I'm getting like 18 hours a day, but I'm like, I'm not on my phone 18 hours a day. Interesting. [46:31] Um... [46:33] So let's guess like what countries? Well, you'd have to have first world countries for it to count. [46:41] You know, like if you're in the Congo, you probably don't get as much screen time. No, you're busy mining the fucking raw materials. Exactly. You're making the phones, not using them. Which is the craziest thing of all. [46:52] The thing that people virtue signal on the most at the end of the line is someone pulling it out. Lowest global average. Interesting. Three hours and 56 minutes is still a lot of time. That's kind of crazy. But they're probably a little healthier with it. How is nine hours and 24 minutes less than 10 hours and 56 minutes? [47:12] How is that the highest global average if 10 hours is the... [47:16] That's weird. I don't understand. Yeah, I don't understand. [47:18] Close contender is more than the highest global average? [47:22] I don't know. I don't get it. But either way, the Philippines, they're killing the game. 10 hours and 56 minutes. Dude, there was a 2023 mental health report. [47:33] came in second most depressed country in the world.

[47:38] Second. Second most depressed country in the world. UK. UK. Yeah. What's number one? Uzbekistan. [47:44] So it's just above Uzbekistan and just below South Africa. Did the UK used to rank higher? Yes, it's tracked down over time, but it's never been superbly. [47:56] misery is our like melancholy is sort of our personality traits our national sport right being a bit more melancholic [48:03] But yet... [48:05] The Ukraine, who are just about to go into their fourth year of war, came in higher. And Yemen, who apparently are going through one of the worst humanitarian crises in human history... [48:15] Also ranked higher. [48:16] than the UK. So yeah, second most depressed country in the world. That's crazy. That's a wild number, man. That can't just be the weather. [48:24] It has to be like a... Weather might contribute a little bit. A little bit, like Seattle does. People in Seattle are depressed as fuck. Maybe it's the online safety bill. [48:32] Could be. [48:33] That would get me depressed. I would be so depressed if I lived in England right now. I'd be like, I'm fucked. Like, legitimately fucked. Like, imagine if I was running this podcast the exact same way out of England. Not for a long time. [48:47] Yeah, I'd get arrested. [48:49] I got arrested. I saw they arrested a teacher because he refused to refer to one of his students as a they. And this is like his second infraction. And so they arrested him. [49:02] For failure to recognize a singular plural... [49:06] I really don't like I don't like shitting on the UK because it feels like I'm pulling the ladder up after I've just got out of it

[49:17] ... [49:17] But it's just, I don't know how many more ways you can faceplant over and over again. And there's this bit, there's a strange kind of romanticization of the past. [49:25] of the UK where we are English common law and we stopped the transatlantic slave trade and we use the navy and so on and so forth. But like, well, we're really living on borrowed time now. [49:36] as the UK. It's been a good while since the UK sort of contributed in that sort of a way. There was a, you know, Alan Turing from World of Wars. The Turing Effect? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So... [49:46] He was the guy that decoded the indicator machine. The internet test. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was gay. [49:51] And he was chemically castrated by the British, despite the fact that he was literally our equivalent of the atomic bomb. [49:58] He was a very British version as well. It wasn't kinetic, it was cognitive. So he decodes the machine that the Germans are using to send the secret messages. This means that we're able to detect exactly where the U-boats are going to be, and it results in some really awkward situations like… [50:14] if we, before we're going to use all of our force to try and take Germany down, if we avoid all of their planned bombings, [50:23] they're going to guess that we might have the keys to some of their communication. So they had to start making decisions. [50:29] about which boats needed to be let attacked and which boats needed to be saved. Oh my God. They knew all of the different attacks that were coming. [50:37] But if they got rid of all of them, if they were safe from all of them, the Germans would start to catch on. [50:42] So they had this really... Oh, God. So this guy... [50:46] Is our equivalent of the atomic bomb?

[50:48] Right? [50:50] He's our Oppenheimer. [50:52] He gets chemically castrated... [50:53] just after World War II. It was in the 50s, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he kills himself. He takes his own life. He puts cyanide in an apple. Oscar Wilde in the 1800s. [51:03] one of the greatest writers of all time. [51:05] He's jailed and then dies in exile as a peasant in France. [51:10] Because he was gay. And then 70 years after... [51:13] touring. [51:14] Gordon Brown, it's like 2008, 2009, publicly apologizes. [51:19] They bring out this thing called the Turing Act, which... [51:22] gets rid of the criminal records of all of these people from history, like posthumous, and some of them are probably still alive, actually, like some of these people that had been... [51:31] whatever it was, convicted of indecent behavior, improper behavior at the time. And then they put Turing on the £50 note. [51:40] So Britain has, for all that it's fantastic and I love it and it's the country that I came from – [51:44] Like, it does have a history of fucking persecuting people for what's deemed improper behavior at the time and then apologizing for it a couple of decades later. [51:53] And I think with the online safety bill thing, just I think it's going to be the sort of thing that you look back on and go, that was not. [52:00] in no one's world was that a smart move. I don't think that it's a [52:04] I don't think that it's helping anybody at all. [52:06] Well, [52:08] It just appears that they want total, complete control of what people say over there. [52:13] And that they don't want criticism of the government, criticism about immigration, criticism about fill in the blank. They don't want it. And the best way to stop that is to keep everybody scared, make everybody self-censor. What's the best way to make everybody self-censor? Put a bunch of fucking people in jail. So last year, what was it, 12,000? 12,000 people got arrested for social media posts? Supposedly more than Russia, although the Russian stats might not be. Yeah. Well, they didn't arrest them. They just shot them in the face.

[52:43] Gulag for you. [52:45] Yeah, they just kill folks over there. But, yeah, it's... [52:49] really bad. [52:50] It's really bad, and it just doesn't seem very progressive. It doesn't seem like you're moving towards the future. It's not progress. We figured out a long time ago that free speech is very important to figure out what's right and what's wrong. And when you suppress people's speech, you can get away with a lot of fucking horrible things because you stop people from being able to protest it. In a small part, we saw a lot of that during the pandemic, and you see what the consequences of that are. [53:20] You can't trust people that want power. You just can't. What do you mean? Anybody that wants any kind of control over a group of people, if you want to control what they say, if you want to control where they go, you want to put them in 15-minute cities, you can't trust that because the natural inclination when someone has power is to never let it go and to ramp it up. They're in the power business. If you're in the power business, you don't want to keep making the same amount of money every year. You don't want to have the same power every year. That's boring. [53:50] Right? Like if you're an insurance salesman, you want to be the fucking employee of the month. You want to make more money next year, you got your eyes on a new Lexus. You're trying to make more. You're not trying to stay maintained. That's not the game you're in. And if you're in the power game, and if you're in the game of enacting new laws, you're in [54:06] in order to have... [54:07] We need safety. Safety. Under the guise of safety, you can get so much evil shit done. And if you start doing that, you're not going to say, you know what, guys, we were that safety bill. We were really wrong. And what's really important is discourse. What's really important is that maybe I wonder why you think the way you think. And maybe part of this polarization process is not enabling us to see valid points the other side has. Let's all come together and talk about this as reasonable human beings.

[54:35] No, that's not what they're going to do. They're going to come up with more fucking reasons to put you in a cage. [54:43] They want you to shut the fuck up because they want to make more. They want to have more. They want to get more power. They want to be the best leader. They want to be the most powerful leader. Isn't that a ruthless part of human nature that – [54:54] trajectory is more important than position. Jimmy Carr taught me this. So your industry, imagine that you're the [55:00] 250th best comedian in the world. Let's imagine there's a ranking. And last year you were the 300th. [55:08] You were in a more... [55:10] psychologically preferable position than somebody who's number two in the world [55:15] But last year I was number one. [55:16] This sense that humans have of where am I now compared to where I was previously. I spoke to Dan Bilzerian about this forever ago. And I was like, dude, you've kind of climbed the peak of the mountain of hedonism. Did you ever think that you kind of front loaded it too much? And that it's going to be really, really difficult for you to ever... [55:35] like reset, like do a hedonic reset. How do you go from the most amount of girls and the cars and all the dopamine that the world has to offer? Where do you go from there? [55:44] And he basically said, yeah, he was like, I'm going to try. I would consider shaving my head and my beard and going and working in an Amazon warehouse for six months to see if I can do like a hard reset. [55:53] But you always know that you've got the get-out-of-jail-free card, so it's not going to be the same. And just the idea, as you're saying, somebody has power. [56:02] they want more power. Right. [56:05] They want more power. They want more control. That sense. That's the sport they're playing.

[56:10] Thank you. [56:10] Bingo. Scoring. They're scoring. You have to keep score. Greta Thunberg. [56:15] The same thing. We need more eyeballs. We need a bigger, bigger. Because where do you go after you've made the rivers of Venice green? Yeah. Well, you need to do something bigger, something more. I need more likes. That didn't get me enough likes. [56:26] I need more likes. I need to go viral. [56:29] It's a ruthless – I'm being shadow banned. No, you're not. Your content just sucks. Some people get shadow banned, but most people that are shadow banned, they just suck. Yeah, most people just don't understand that they're not interesting. But there's definitely real shadow banning going on. One of the things that was interesting is that once Elon purchased Twitter, I gained like five million followers over the course of a couple of months. I was like, what's going on? [56:59] down. [56:59] I'm not complaining about this. I'm just observing. I know I have a lot of followers. It's ridiculous. But I started – I think I had 7 million. And I used to go up pretty steady. And then somewhere during the woke days, during the dark days of woke, when it all started happening, which is around I think 2014, 15, 16, started really ramping up. And then it seems like from 16 on, real censorship started really kicking into high gear because then they had a reason for it. [57:29] Trump is our president. We have to make sure this never happens again. In fact, there was a meeting, I believe. [57:36] I don't want to say the tech company because I might be incorrect, but one of the...

[57:41] One of the main people at this tech company specifically said at the meeting, we have to make sure this doesn't happen again. [57:52] As in Trump being president. They did a fucking horrendous job there, didn't they? Well, they fucked up. But the point being, imagine you are in control of an enormous platform, an enormous media platform that controls the discourse of... [58:09] There's untold billions of people in the world, and you have a very specific mandate that you've given to the people that work for you. We have to make sure that we control who the king is because that's what you're saying. Are you saying we want to make sure this doesn't happen again? Well, how do you do that? How do you do that if 50 percent of the people don't agree? Yeah. [58:28] Bye, Force. [58:29] There's only one way. You have to do it by force. Or if you control the narrative, then you just – [58:35] hide information, accelerate information that's incorrect. You just ban people from communicating. [58:45] kick people out. Well, I mean, some people would say that getting to choose who's king is what you do if you then buy that social media platform. [58:52] Sure. There's an argument for that. [58:54] like what Elon did. There's a real argument for that. But there's also an argument for [58:58] Don't you think it's a good idea if we have at least one of these motherfuckers that's huge? [59:03] that you can go wild wild west on and say whatever you want. I think that's very important. You don't have to agree with them. There's all these tools you can use. One of them is the mute button. You can mute people. Bye-bye. I don't want to hear you anymore. You're annoying. Or you can ban them. I don't even want you looking at my page. Get out of here. Those things exist. You can curate who you're communicating and interacting with. But...

[59:27] If you don't have one of these groups that's resistant to – [59:34] intelligence agencies shutting down legitimate voices, including during the COVID times. It was guys like Jay Bhattacharya from Stanford, guys from MIT, because they were saying something that didn't jive with what the agenda that Fauci was pushing through. Where do you think we're at now, if you were to sort of... [59:53] predict what the trajectory of the speech stuff is online. Talk about America. The UK, I think, is just a lost cause. [1:00:00] Do you think that we're going to continue on this... [1:00:02] general path which seems to be a little bit more sanity yes the peak this episode is brought to you by zip recruiter have you ever lost your keys and ended up tearing your house apart trying to find them what makes it even worse is when it's the most conspicuous obvious place you could have sworn you checked already it'd be nice if we had the ability to find whatever we're looking for right away and at least for hiring managers on the hunt for talented people that's possible [1:00:32] free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. Using ZipRecruiter almost feels like having superpowers. It works quickly and efficiently at finding qualified candidates for your role largely because they have incredible matching technology and an advanced resume database that can help you connect with people instantly. No more wasting time and energy. ZipRecruiter can help you find

[1:01:02] look no further than ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And right now, you can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. [1:01:22] I think people realize from the peak and most importantly realize from Elon's purchase of Twitter. When Elon purchased Twitter, and I don't say this lightly, I think he changed the course of civilization. I really do. I think we were on our way to this weird dystopian censorship complex that was already moving. We had already had intelligence agencies that were contacting Twitter. We know this through the Twitter files, and they were banning Twitter. [1:01:50] certain people that weren't saying incorrect things, but they were saying things that were inconvenient. And they turned out to all be accurate. All the things that they were warning about, all the things that they're saying all turned out to be accurate. They stopped the distribution of the Hunter Biden laptop story by the New York Post. [1:02:09] The New York Post, the second oldest newspaper in America, it's a fucking huge newspaper. To stop that from being able to be distributed on Twitter. [1:02:19] Which it would turn out to be a totally accurate story and to stop that accurate story is wild. That is scary stuff that is [1:02:28] If Elon didn't purchase Twitter, we would have just had to deal with that kind of stuff. That would be – and it would accelerate. It wouldn't stay where it is. It would ramp up. It would get more – they were starting to use the term malinformation. So there's misinformation, disinformation, and then malinformation. Malinformation is factual information that might cause harm.

[1:02:52] Can you give me an example of malinformation? Children don't need a COVID vaccine. [1:02:57] That's malinformation because it is true. Statistically speaking, like especially healthy kids, they kick it off like it's nothing. They don't need a vaccine for that. But that might cause people to not get vaccinated. That might kill your grandmother. So that's malinformation. Can you think of an example of malinformation where it's justified? [1:03:16] in doing that? Yes. I would say... [1:03:19] like, [1:03:20] If you had some information and you were releasing it online that was an – [1:03:31] accurate depiction of [1:03:33] of some things that the federal government is involved with. [1:03:39] that would compromise national security to a huge extent. People overseas. Uh-huh. Yeah, would get people killed, could start conflicts. Here's another one that I've just thought of. Uh... [1:03:49] How to you know those desktop DNA printers? This is how to put smallpox together. [1:03:55] Right, right, right. Something like that. Something which is true, but would be dangerous. And this is the devil's in the fucking details. A hundred percent. Stuff like this. It's never binary. It's never incorrect. Sometimes it's binary. Sometimes. I shouldn't say never. Some things are binary. Sure. Like whether or not you should win a fucking world's woman strong lifting strongman power woman competition. That just happened. I thought we were done with that. [1:04:20] It just happened. Would you know why it was able to happen? It's because that person lied.

[1:04:27] That person lied about their sex. Oh, interesting. Jamie, can you try and pull up an image of the... [1:04:35] current 2025 [1:04:37] World's Strongest Woman winner, please. Just for clarity, Mitchell Hooper, that is the World's Strongest Man, [1:04:46] Canadian dude. [1:04:47] He's 6'3". [1:04:48] 3.30pm [1:04:49] The person who won... [1:04:52] Woman's strongest man. [1:04:54] Yeah. [1:04:54] is 6'4 and 400 pounds. She makes the current world's strongest man look like an infant. [1:05:01] Oh, World's Strongest Woman Woman Stripped of Title After Organizer Discovered She Was Born a Man. That was an hour ago, dude. Okay, so an hour ago they stripped her. Is that the person? Yep. Yep. [1:05:10] Jamie Booker, disqualified. That's a man? [1:05:14] Are you sure? [1:05:16] It appears the athlete who is biologically male and now identifies as female competed in the women's open category. They were unaware of this fact ahead of the competition and have been urgently investigating. I want to know what urgent investigation is. They went on Twitter. [1:05:31] So that's a biological male. That's interesting. Correct. It looks like just a big lady. Had we been aware or had this been declared at any point before or during the competition, this athlete would not have been permitted to compete in the women's open category. The move comes after runner-up. [1:05:43] Andrea Thompson, British, hey, was filmed storming off the podium as she raged about the bullshit decision toward the title. So the other competitors evidently knew. Okay, so Thompson is now the winner. So the U.K. gets the gold. I think about this.

[1:05:59] So much when it comes to sporting competitions, and it's not just with the trans thing, although this is a huge deal, and I did think that we kind of got past it. [1:06:08] How [1:06:09] horrible is it to be the person who [1:06:12] One? [1:06:13] But had that moment, the podium moment, stolen from you by somebody. I think there's a weightlifting Olympics weightlifting championship final where currently like the 11th place finisher is now first. Because each person has progressively got popped for PEDs. Number one did that. Number two did that. Number three did it. It's like 11 people have been popped for PEDs now. Well, that's the Tour de France. [1:06:43] remove all of the people that have tested positive for something. [1:06:48] You got to go down to like 18th place. [1:06:52] For real. For real. Like all those guys were doing something. They were all blood doping. They were all taking EPO. They were putting motors in their fucking bikes. I've seen a video of that. Yeah. These guys try for fucking every edge humanly possible. So, you know, he was just a scapegoat. [1:07:13] But what he was doing was he was suing people that were saying that he did PEDs. It's a smart way to silence them. But, yeah, I mean – Sort of. Thinking about – I would be really interested to see what the reaction is. That's hot – the fucking wet clay stuff, right? Hot off the press a couple of hours ago that it's been rescinded. I think we would be more outraged if they accepted this transgender person as a female.

[1:07:37] and then say, oh, a trans woman's a woman, let her compete. It seems like this person lied. [1:07:43] And so that's different. But still identify – [1:07:47] I agree that it's reassuring to see what the world's strongest person organization decided that they were going to do in sort of repercussion to it. [1:07:58] But... [1:07:59] You can already predict, both of us can already predict what's going to happen online, that this person shouldn't have been stripped of their title. Maybe they lied, but they should be competing inside of this. The side of the aisle that always agrees with this, do you not think that they're going to be pro? I think that is... [1:08:16] Slowly but surely losing traction and support. [1:08:21] I really believe that. I believe that's where the rubber meets the road because you're going to lose most women that have ever done a sport. If you are a sedentary woman that has no interest whatsoever in athletic competition and you think it's more than a good price to pay to let biological males who identify as women because we want them to be exclusive, it's more important to recognize and affirm their identity than it is to be fair. [1:08:51] sports. So you're going to lose not just most of the men, [1:08:55] You're going to lose a lot of – you're going to lose anyone – [1:08:59] right of center. [1:09:01] Like, [1:09:01] libertarian, anyone, anyone, you're going to not just lose all of the right, you're going to lose a giant chunk of the center. Because I think the center in this country is probably the most rational of all groups.

[1:09:14] Those are the people that recognize kind of a little bit of everything here, right of center or left of center. You're going to lose all those people, and you're going to lose most women. You're going to lose most women that have daughters. You're going to lose them. The only ones you're not going to lose are the fucking kooks, the SSRI, filled-up, anti-anxiety medication, transitioning-happy kooks. [1:09:44] You have a hierarchy of who's oppressed the most. And trans people are people. Trans women are women. And they want to scream it out and yell it. They're just crazy. You're going to have those people that are going to be with it no matter what. Get into the boxing ring with that trans woman who's a woman. I love the one that was a man that lied. The Olympic champion that they just took away his gold medal. That story flip-flopped back and forth like ten times. It was like a Christopher Nolan movie. [1:10:14] They were threatening to sue a bunch of people, right? They were threatening to sue a bunch of people that called them a male. But then – Made a statement. Rescinded it. Made a statement. Let's put this through perplexity or something. [1:10:24] Where we can figure out what – I want to know what the number is. I want to know what's true. Because what I think is there was another organization that did a chromosome analysis and found out this person had an XY chromosome. So this is a specific type of disease or genetic abnormality where your testicles don't drop. It's like in edge cases again. Edge cases. It's so strange. Ask it. Ask it.

[1:10:53] Did that person get their gold medal taken away and why? Well, yes, they did. Right. And why? Just see what I know. But let's see what it says as far in terms of why. Why? Because they're a man. And how did they find out? [1:11:06] Find out how they found out. Because I think the narrative is that there was another boxing organization that had already suspected something was up. Did some testing. Did some testing, found out this person has an XY chromosome. [1:11:18] used that. You know, [1:11:19] So, won the Golden Women's 66-kilogram boxing event. Strip now a de-recognized International Boxing Association previously disqualified Khalif from the 2023 Women's World Championships after she failed eligibility tests under its own rules. Later claimed those tests showed she was ineligible for women's competition. [1:11:49] arguing that she could not have been allowed in the woman's – should not have been allowed in the woman's category. Like they're still saying she. Despite those demands, IOC has defended allowing Khalif to compete in Paris, describing the IBA's disqualification decision as arbitrary and saying she met the IOC's eligibility criteria at the time. [1:12:09] So what is the IOC's [1:12:12] What is their eligibility criteria? Boxing must be a fucking nightmare for this because of all of the different organizations that exist. And each one is going to have its own different set. We have a coordination problem here. Here's an even more. Here's a bigger nightmare. Prisons.

[1:12:27] Prisons have a self-identity thing. In order to be eligible for female prisons, there's a lot of prisons, including, I believe, New Jersey, California. California has 47 biological males that are housed in women's prisons. Okay. At least. Who runs a prison? Is it the state? Yeah. [1:12:46] Is it an independent organization? Some of them are independent. Some of them are privately owned. Chromosome test results were kept confidential by the IBA, but were leaked after and widely reported. The IOC nonetheless rejected IBA's findings as arbitrary, even with the chromosome test. That's really standing at ground. Boy, you silly gooses. Well, see, this was only 2024. So to say that [1:13:13] Maybe this is the landmark case. Maybe it wasn't Leah Thomas as a swimmer. Maybe it was somebody in a physical sport. But, I mean, when we're talking about the strong... [1:13:21] woman competition. Dude, if you're 6'4", I think the next tallest woman was 5'8". [1:13:27] or five seven. Think about what you're doing. You're like wrapping your arms around. You can, it always gets slippery, right? Because it's like, well, there's not very many of them. [1:13:35] So why are we making such a big deal out of it? It's like, hey, if there's one rapist, [1:13:40] in the local community, you don't go, well, there's only one of them. Like, what's the chances that you run into? It's like, no, no, no, we try and, you know, treat this problem. So first off, there's not many of them. Then, well, you know, look at what happens when you take... [1:13:53] these estrogen you down regulate your testosterone it's below this particular level therapeutic dadada and you go well Yeah, but it's like being on a heavy course of steroids up until you stopped doing that and then how much of that does carry over that gets a bit slippery but I

[1:14:07] Just the size, the size of the hands of a person who's six foot four and 400 pounds compared with a woman who's probably like 220 and five foot eight, like grip strength, being able to do like that's pretty important in the sport of strong women. All of them. [1:14:22] When you're a small business owner, you're always looking for the next big thing. Whether you're a gym owner looking to expand, a store stocking up for a busy season, or a restaurant owner planning a new menu, [1:14:32] you'll always need capital to grow. [1:14:35] But traditional banks are making it harder than ever to secure a small business loan. [1:14:39] That's why thousands of business owners trust Cardiff for same-day funding. [1:14:44] Their online application takes less than five minutes and won't impact your personal credit score. [1:14:50] With over two decades of expertise, it's no surprise business owners keep voting Cardiff, America's favorite small business lender. [1:14:58] If you've been operating for at least a year and are earning at least $20,000 a month in revenue... [1:15:02] Apply now for up to $500,000 in same-day business funding at cardiff.co.rogan. [1:15:09] Again, that's cardiff.co slash rogan. Cardiff. Borrow better. [1:15:14] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Summer means fun and making memories, but it can also feel like you're in survivor mode with packed schedules, keeping the kids entertained, and chaotic routines. That's not so fun. You've got to make sure that you're taking care of you, and therapy can help with that. From setting boundaries to making a space to recharge, it can help make your summer more balanced and enjoyable.

[1:15:44] online. You'll be matched based on your needs and can switch any time if it's not the right fit. With millions of clients worldwide, people are finding the support they need with BetterHelp. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find guidance in therapy. Visit BetterHelp.com to get started. That's BetterHelp.com Wrapping your arms around an atlas stone. Yeah, you could do [1:16:14] It's all ridiculous. It's ridiculous. It's not the same. It doesn't mean that someone shouldn't be able to change their name and identify as a woman. It's just like you can't dominate women's sports. You can't dominate women's spaces. You can't. You're not a woman. We'll call you one if we want to be nice. [1:16:44] The reason why you have it set up that women will compete against each other because it's fair. It's not fair to make women. Or else you just have a unisex category. Yes. And it would be dominated by men. Dominated by men. And then girls wouldn't have this amazing opportunity to get scholarships, which they're being denied because biological males are winning in their category because they allow them to compete. And there's a thing called – this is what people don't want to believe, but it's true. It always has existed.

[1:17:14] they really are a woman there's a thing called sandbagging okay and sandbagging has always existed sandbagging is let's let's say that you're going to enter into a jiu-jitsu tournament and you're going into the purple belt division but you've been a purple belt for eight years and you're supposed to be a brown belt and they you know for whatever reason you or you could even here's a worse one maybe you're a black belt in judo like an elite black belt and you enter into a jiu-jitsu [1:17:44] And you're in there with some fucking dork who's a plumber who's just started taking classes. I think it would be fun to compete. And you fucking flip him on his head and break his arm in an arm bar in like 15 seconds. Like that's sandbagging because you're an elite athlete. You're like a world-class judo guy that just thought it would be fun to put a white belt on and enter into a jiu-jitsu tournament. There's people that do that because they just want to win. That's why people cheat at video games. That's why people cheat at golf, right? [1:18:14] because they want to win. They just want to get that W. And there's people that will pretend they're a woman to beat up women. And if you don't think that's the case, you haven't met enough psychos. [1:18:26] Because are there people that are in the wrong body? I don't know. I'll give them that respect. I'll give them that dignity. Are there also people that are out of their fucking mind and want an excuse to beat up women and pretend they're a woman? If you tell them they could wear a dress and they could just run past all the ladies and dominate them on the field. Yeah, they're going to do that, too. That's a real type of human being. And if you don't have an accurate test for that, if you don't have a thing you make them lick, oh, you're a fucking psycho.

[1:18:56] Judge [1:18:56] Each individual situation based entirely on why would someone do this? How much crossover would that be if somebody was a black belt in judo? How much crossover is there to... [1:19:09] An immense amount. Yeah. An immense. An immense, immense, immense, immense, immense amount. Especially if it's a gi tournament. Oh, my God. You're virtually helpless. Helpless. Even though judo is primarily done on the feet? It is, but they do arm bars. They do. Look at Ronda Rousey. She has one of the best arm bars in the history of the sport. Look at Kayla Harrison. Look at all these judoos. Look at Carl Parisian. [1:19:39] It chokes and leg locks. And of course, they're submitting each other as well. It's not exactly the same. And if they went like Gi to Gi with, you know, some prime Leo Vieira, black belt, you know, Gi master, you know, you likely would give the jujitsu person a giant advantage because they'd spend way more time submitting people. [1:20:09] Judo to jiu-jitsu in a tournament, I would say black belt to black belt, they probably have a disadvantage in judo. But a huge advantage over a white belt. What do you think about Jake Paul Anthony Joshua? [1:20:22] Toy. [1:20:24] Um... [1:20:25] Thank you.

[1:20:27] Well, realistically – [1:20:30] It's one of the craziest propositions of all time. You take a guy who just had a boxing match that looks like a sparring match with a 58-year-old Mike Tyson. [1:20:41] And then – [1:20:43] You're going to fight one of the absolute scariest knockout artists in the heavyweight division. Maybe we should watch the Francis Ngannou fight. Let's watch that real quick. Just so you can see what Anthony Joshua is capable of. [1:20:57] If he's fighting someone that's not in his league. [1:21:00] Okay, look. [1:21:01] who sick beat him and he beat him twice and andy ruiz caught him in the first fight and and dropped him and stopped him it was spectacular andy ruiz is super fucking talented usick is perhaps the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time maybe one of the maybe maybe one of the greatest of all time in any weight class usick you know and usick beat him and he beat him twice but uh... [1:21:26] Francis Ngannou... [1:21:28] is coming off of this fight with let go a little bit before that so we can see this happen. [1:21:33] Watch this. So he drops him with a right hand early. And this is like two minutes into the first round. And Francis gets up. He survives. [1:21:46] And then Joshua, check out this... [1:21:51] this combination he hits them with. [1:21:53] Thank you. [1:21:54] I mean, dude, the speed... [1:21:56] That he hits him with this?

[1:22:00] He's so dangerous, man. [1:22:03] It's like you're dealing with a guy who's an Olympic gold medalist, and he's enormous, and he's got vicious knockout power, and he's got immense amount of experience at world-class levels. Just think about what we said earlier. Fought Usyk twice. Fought Andy Ruiz twice. [1:22:20] heavy. [1:22:21] Oh, man, bro. The timing in that right hand, just spectacular. [1:22:29] That's a stepping end as well. Over the top. I mean, that was a full-force shot to the temple. I mean, he's fucksville right now. [1:22:37] So they wipe off his gloves, but you look at him like he's – [1:22:41] He's really feeling it right now. I mean, he probably has no idea where he is. And Anthony Joshua flat ones him. Absolutely folded in half. Back that up again. Watch this. I mean, just steps into it with every ounce of his body. [1:22:57] Perfect right hand. So the fact that Jake Paul wants to fight that guy. [1:23:02] Hey. [1:23:03] I'll watch... [1:23:04] I'm gonna watch I'm definitely gonna watch so you got me there and if you want to show you're legit [1:23:11] by taking on one of the scariest fucking heavyweights alive. Can you get the tail of the tape of Paul and Joshua? I was going to say, they got him in a way of a grade of 245. That's only like seven pounds less. Yeah, that's nothing. And there's some sort of a rehydration clause. Listen, kids, it ain't going to matter. Yeah. [1:23:28] You know, there's not a chance that Anthony Joshua is not going to just lose the weight beforehand. He's not going to come in drained. What he's going to do is just do extra cardio, and that's just going to make him more dangerous.

[1:23:40] He's going to be terrifying, and he's going to have a lot to prove. He's going to be very angry that Jake Paul wants to fight him. [1:23:46] Very upset that this YouTuber who's fought Tommy Fury, who's a legit boxer, and, you know, a couple other guys that were legit boxers. That's it. Like, everyone else he's fought. He's fought Ben Askren, who was really a wrestler. You know, he fought Tyron Woodley, who was an elite MMA fighter, but, you know, not an elite boxer. He fought Nate Robinson, who was a basketball player. At least he's fought these guys. He fought Anderson Silva, and he dropped Anderson Silva, and Anderson Silva's a really good striker. But... [1:24:12] Also in his 40s, you know, different time. It's, you know, not the same guy he used to be. [1:24:18] This is a 34-year-old Anthony Joshua. This is a terrifying human being, terrifying. [1:24:24] Again, a guy who survived Usyk twice. [1:24:27] You saw what Usyk did to Dubois? You see Usyk take out Dubois? Did you see that? That's the Usyk you're talking about. There's an Usyk that rocked Tyson Fury, who's fucking 6'9". [1:24:39] Jake Paul's six foot one. Yeah. This is six foot six. Anthony Joshua. Jake weighed in for the Tyson fight at one ninety nine. Yeah. Joshua against the God. It was two fifty two. Six, six. Just not just six, six, but six, six and knows how to use every fucking inch of it. Knows how to keep that stick in your face. He was keep that jab in his face and that right hand. If it hits you, you're fucked. And. [1:25:05] He's not worried about you the way he's worried about Usyk. You can't move like Usyk. You can't constantly be frustrating and overloading his nervous system. Usyk is overloading every aspect of your senses at every moment. He's constantly moving, and then punches are coming, and he loops punches around your guard, and he's constantly shifting his feet, and you think he's going to be there, and he's over here. And it's like this overload of thinking.

[1:25:35] You can kind of move around and get your groove and he's going to stay on the outside. No, it's just constant. He survived that guy twice. [1:25:42] He survived, in my opinion, the most skillful heavyweight of all time, twice. [1:25:47] And you're going to go boxing? [1:25:49] Thank you. [1:25:49] And the toughest guy you fought before was 40 years old Anderson Silva? Those are the toughest guys so far you've fought? [1:25:55] You've lost to Tommy Fury, who's a very good boxer. [1:25:58] This is a giant Olympic gold medalist heavyweight. I mean, Anthony Joshua is fucking terrifying. He is the thing that nightmares are made of. And he's got that one-punch nuclear power. One punch. And he's fast. It's an explosion. There's certain guys... [1:26:15] that like in kickboxing couldn't translate over to MMA because they didn't have the kind of speed. [1:26:22] Like Peter Ertz is a good example. He was a world-class kickboxer, one of the best of all time, but didn't have the style that would allow him to tramp. But then there was Mirko Krokop. Mirko Krokop, who was violently explosive, would perfectly transition to MMA because you've got to be able to hit people quick. A big part of it is speed. Anthony Joshua has that kind of speed. With 252 pounds behind him. [1:26:52] what happens is Francis Ngato and Anthony Joshua. You have to be a very – you can't judge that guy based on Dubois who's a fucking murderer. Daniel Dubois is a tank and he took out Joshua. But that guy is fucking terrifying. You're staring in front of that guy, but Usyk didn't stand in front of him. Usyk moved all over the place. Joshua is – and he's going to have a lot to prove. He's going to be very angry. Do you think they'll let everybody take the brakes off because there's all rumors about Tyson versus Jake

[1:27:22] Both of them were sort of pulling punches and not fully letting it go. I think that's a different deal. Do you think there was something probably just below the table? I do not know. I do not know if it was said. I do not know if it was understood. I do not know. In your professional opinion, based on what you saw, do you think that the people were holding back? It definitely looked like sparring. [1:27:42] But it could be that he didn't want to hurt Mike Tyson because Mike Tyson's 58 years old. Or it could be that Mike Tyson didn't want to hurt him because he likes him. I don't fucking know. But it wasn't what I was tuning in for. It was not for me. I was there. I went to it live. I was tuning in for Mike Tyson coming full 1988 Mike Tyson, full chaos. That's what I was hoping for. We walked out like that. It looked like it. Yeah. But that's what everybody signed up for. So they got us. Whatever. And do you think that... [1:28:12] I don't think this is that. I don't think this is that at all. First of all, it can't be that because Joshua is still competitive in the heavyweight division, and he's only doing this for money. [1:28:21] He's still set up for world title fights. After he knocked down Ngannou, you could still set him up. Like Joseph Parker just lost. You could set him up with Joseph Parker. You could have until a year ago, you could fight Deontay Wilder. You're saying that the lineage and the trajectory that Anthony Joshua is on, if he happens to go a little bit too gentle and lose by decision to Jake Paul, it doesn't exactly look great for his future heavyweight challenge. He fucks up all of his marketing opportunities. Wow. So that's a really – so what we were saying before. The Ngannou fight is a godsend to him, right? [1:28:51] This guy knocked down Tyson Fury. This is how it was supposed to go. Anthony Joshua, you carried the torch for the boxing community. Because I know a lot of straight up boxers, they absolutely felt that way. This is what needed to happen. These guys can't come over from MMA and think they can box the best.

[1:29:09] What's great there, and it loops back to what we were talking about before, is incentives, incentives, align the incentives. Yeah. Like, if you've got Joshua's – I mean, this is – However, I should – Caveat. Yeah. Here's the caveat. [1:29:22] this might earn him $200 million. [1:29:26] So if it earns him so much money. Joshua or Jake Paul? [1:29:29] Joshua, like either one. How much money is involved? $200 million? Oh, dude. [1:29:35] This is a Saudi organization, right? This is Riyadh's season. Isn't this – that was putting this on? [1:29:41] They seem to own everything. I think they own me now. And you and Jamie and Carl. It's Netflix, right? [1:29:46] Right, yeah. This is going to be on Netflix. Okay, so I don't know. Maybe it's not – maybe Riyadh's season is not involved. But the money they threw Canelo Alvarez to get him to fight Terrence Crawford, they're throwing insane money at people. They're throwing nutty sums of cash at people to make amazing fights happen. This has always been the hiccup in boxing is that people don't want to fight certain people because they want to protect their record. [1:30:10] The Saudis are like, how much? Everybody's got a price. Yeah, everyone's got a price. We've got the bank account to pay it. [1:30:15] So here it is. The reported total prize purse for Jake Paul versus Anthony Joshua is $184 million, with an even split expected, meaning each fighter will earn approximately $92 million. Some reports initially suggest a different figure, $184, is the most frequently cited total from sources like Daily Mail and Wikipedia. Okay, that doesn't mean anything. Some have also mentioned Jake Paul's cryptic $267 million tweet, which may have fueled rumors.

[1:30:45] really depends on [1:30:46] who's setting it up. Netflix doesn't have to tell you how much they're paying, but... [1:30:52] The thing about Anthony Joshua, if he loses this, if he – so let's say he's only getting the 92 million, which I bet he's getting more. Let's say he's getting 92 million. [1:31:00] If he loses this fight, he misses out on that Saudi money. [1:31:05] Because they could set up a Tyson Fury, Anthony Joshua fight, and each one of them gets – [1:31:10] $200 million. You can do a fight like that. The Saudis can do a fight like that. They can do a fight. They have enough resources to throw at boxing or they can change the entire landscape of boxing. [1:31:22] If you were the guy that stands in between 6'6", 250-pound Anthony Joshua and $200 million, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I don't think he's going to lose to you on purpose. I don't want to be that guy. But I'm not saying that anybody lost to anybody on purpose. I don't think that's happened. But what I do think is that… [1:31:44] People take it easier on people if they like them. [1:31:47] And it looked like they were taking it easier on each other than you would expect. I'll just say that. This is my personal opinion. I don't think that's going to happen with this fight. [1:31:55] I don't think there's any chance in the world, knowing what Anthony Joshua is a specialist at, he's a specialist at putting knuckles through your fucking brain, you know, and that's what he's going to try to do to Jake Paul. And anything other than that from a 34-year-old Anthony Joshua will make us all think it's a fixed fight. [1:32:13] Whether or not Josh can do it, whether or not –

[1:32:16] Jake Paul shocks the world and shows us that he really does know how to box really well and moves really good and uses his jab and [1:32:24] Blows us all away with a strategy and a lot of footwork and movement and brings Usyk into his camp. Or Lomachenko's dad, even better, who's the guy who trained Usyk. He trained Usyk as well. [1:32:35] Lomacheco's father. That's why they both are the best moving fighters in this generation by far. By far. They're in a group of the greatest of all time like Willie Pepp and Pernell Whitaker. There's like a group of defensive wizards that exist today that they're in that group. And two of them that exist in that group are trained by the same guy. [1:32:56] Lomachenko and Usyk. [1:32:59] I don't want to be Jake Paul. That's what I mean. Yeah, fuck that. I know that I do not want to be. What better way to show the world you're legit? Go get knocked out by Olympic gold medalist, former world heavyweight champion, 6'6", 250 pounds. Yeah. I mean, it's wonderful. Show the world you're ready to win it. You're definitely not fucking about. I had this guy on my podcast, Bugsy Malone. So he's a British grime artist. And he had this home. What's a grime artist? Like drill, rap. Oh, okay. Did you know what that means? You did? [1:33:29] I can't. It's too late. I missed it. I missed everything. He grows up in the north of the UK in gangs. [1:33:35] Manchester. [1:33:36] and he's in juvenile detention. As a teenager, he gets stabbed with a screwdriver, like rough stuff, rough, rough northern stuff. But some part of his upbringing just sort of really compels him to try and...

[1:33:49] bring himself out of this situation. Starts making music, gets super successful, does this fire in the booth with Charlie Sloth that gets like 35 million plays. And he starts boxing. Boxing is like one of his... [1:34:00] salvages. It's one of his safe havens. And it's the thing, one of the things that's kept him very disciplined throughout his whole life. So he starts accumulating some money. Nearby is a nice house in Manchester, a very, very nice house. And the local kids nearby sort of starting to take a little bit of notice. Maybe they know who he is as an artist and word starts to get around that he's living there. There'd been some concerns, some security concerns for a little while, [1:34:23] And he gets a phone call from his girlfriend at the time. She says, there's some men here. [1:34:29] They're trying to break in, and they're in a van. And as she's on the phone, he hears the glass shatter. [1:34:34] of this house. His mum's in the house and his girlfriend at the time is in the house. He's driving around, he's got his sister in the car. So he drives back in the car. [1:34:42] This is a guy who's like world famous as a rapper, right? This would be like happening to like the British 50 Cent or the British Jay-Z or P Diddy or something like that. [1:34:50] drives back, getting down the driveway toward this house. There's a blockade. There's boulders that have been laid out in front. So he knows that there's going to be an ambush of some kind. And he sees this guy in the bushes, [1:35:00] on the right. [1:35:01] with a brick. [1:35:02] This guy's hiding in the bushes waiting and he thinks he's going to throw it through the window, but he doesn't. He wants to hit him with the brick. So Bugsy stops the car, opens the door and immediately he's massively into Jordan Peterson, personal development, self-growth. It's like an odd blend of rough upbringing, self-discipline and sort of transcendent personal growth. And he gets out of the car and points at the guy and he goes, no way is that you. Is that a blue T-shirt? No.

[1:35:24] And the guy's like, and as he's doing it, because he's been training so much, he's coming toward him, distracting him. The same way as I go, what's on that T-shirt there? [1:35:31] Immediately you go. [1:35:32] And before he knew it, Bugsy's hit him, spun him around, bricks fallen out of his hand because this guy hasn't set his feet in time. It's a problem of having a big weapon. [1:35:40] Bugsy said, like, you need to set yourself and you need to be able to throw it. Like, it's good because it can hurt someone, but it's slow and it's cumbersome and you can't move as fast. And he's training every day, every single day, no matter whether he's rapping, he's on tour, he's training and he's boxing and he's fighting and he's sharp. He knows his distance. Hits this guy. They have a scrap. [1:35:57] Bugsy wins. [1:35:58] moves the stuff out of the way, gets back in the car, drives in. Jamie, can you just CCTV search for [1:36:04] Search Bugsy Malone CCTV. So there's footage from his house of when he pulls up in the Mercedes. [1:36:11] And, um... [1:36:12] So... [1:36:14] Go back, back, back a little bit. [1:36:16] Yeah, just to the start. [1:36:18] So, [1:36:19] This is him pulling in, in his car. [1:36:21] having just beaten someone up. This is a van filled with guys. Gets out of the car, pulls his top off. [1:36:28] And then sprints, [1:36:31] to go and get the rest of the guys that are waiting outside. That is not the behavior of a dude who gives a single fuck [1:36:39] This is the British Jay-Z ripping his top off and then sprinting out to try and chase people away. And the real kicker of it, there was like tons of... This episode is brought to you by Tecovas. All right, guys, if you want boots that are made right, you got to check out Tecovas. Their Western boots are sturdy and clearly built to last, but really sharp and premium too. You don't need to break them in either. They're comfortable straight out of the box and great boots for those summer concerts, weddings, work events, whatever.

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[1:38:54] The real kicker was the dudes that he fought... [1:38:57] They press charges. [1:39:00] They press charges against him. [1:39:01] Because he's rich. [1:39:03] They pressed charges because he fucked them up. [1:39:07] And then at the... Oh, they pressed charges. They pressed charges against him. Did they actually wind up going to court over this? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Yep. Went to court. And this is... It was so brilliant. He told this story to me. And he said... [1:39:21] uh, [1:39:22] It was the middle of COVID and people weren't sure whether venues were going to be open. He had this tour. This tour was going on, but it wasn't selling as well. No tours were selling as well as he would have liked. So he spoke to his lawyer. [1:39:34] before his lawyer went to go and do the not guilty verdict. And they had two statements that were ready. And he came out. He said, very pleased to say that Aaron Davies has been acquitted today. He's not been found guilty. He is now getting back to preparing for his upcoming tour. And tickets are available now. [1:39:52] His lawyer did a mid-roll ad read for his tour as part of his not guilty verdict, having just beaten up like a van filled with blokes. [1:40:04] One of whom looked like a plumber. It was your plumber comment that got me thinking about it. Like, just some white belt that decides, you know, some guy that thinks he's a bit hard. Like, he's had a little bit of a throw and this guy's training every single day. [1:40:14] sharpening his skills and he's been doing it since he was a kid. That's hilarious. And he's dangerous and he's nasty. It's wonderful when a story like that works out. In America, people have guns. [1:40:22] It's different.

[1:40:24] Different sport. Have you looked at appropriate force in the UK? Do you know what that is? The use of appropriate force? There's a lot of that in America as well. Okay. Depending state by state. They have different – there's different standards that different states impose. Like Florida has to stand your ground. Florida, you just get away with killing people. [1:40:43] California, it's very different. They were actually trying to pass the thing in California saying it's your obligation to leave your house if someone breaks into it. [1:40:51] I don't know if that got through. [1:40:53] It's your obligation to not shoot them, that you can't harm them because they're just trying to steal something. They're not trying to harm you. [1:41:02] Like the assumption should be that they're not trying to harm you. Exactly. I've had this conversation with people on the podcast, actually with Tommy Chong. It was a mind-numbing conversation that – [1:41:13] You know, you should... [1:41:14] not think of this person as trying to attack you that their life is not less valuable than yours it's just as valuable as your life you shouldn't take their life despite the fact that they're on your property despite the fact that is back the fact i can't talk despite the fact rather that historically a lot of people have broken into people's houses and killed them it's happened over and over and over again you're just assuming that this time is going to be different because they just want your watch or whatever like fuck off like this is that's a dumb way to live like [1:41:44] crazy people. That's a real thing. Yeah, I think the... [1:41:48] appropriate force thing becomes interesting in the UK where [1:41:52] you don't have as many guns because there's more levels of weapon in between...

[1:41:57] Nothing, just hands. Baseball bat and samurai sword. Yeah, this guy's got a brick, so you're allowed a brick. [1:42:03] But if you bring a gun to a knife fight... [1:42:05] That's not appropriate force. Oh. You know what I mean? You only had a knife. Yes. You cheated. Yeah. It's like, I don't know, it's very gentlemanly. Oh, God. [1:42:15] So stupid. Well, the UK's got some odd... [1:42:19] archaic laws like the distance between the front benches in the House of Commons is the same as two broadswords held out at arm's length which is just so funny well that's also why you guys drive on the other side of the road right? [1:42:34] Why? I think you drive on the left side of the road so you can use your right arm to slash each other. [1:42:39] No way. With a sword. Yeah, I believe that's what it is. [1:42:41] What, in case you were jousting in a vehicle? In case someone, if you're on a horse or if you're in a car, you want to be able to get them on that side. That's the strong side. [1:42:50] Someone told me that when I was over there. I hope I'm not incorrect. I like it as a story. Whether it's right or wrong, I don't care. There's a reason that women's shirts button from the left and not the right. Have you ever accidentally put your wife's hoodie on instead? [1:43:04] It goes in the... [1:43:06] Middle Ages, you knew you were going to meet when traveling on horseback. Most people are right-handed. So if a stranger passes to the right of you, your right hand would be free to use your sword if required. [1:43:15] Yeah, that's why you guys do it with your cars. Well, this is the problem. If you don't have a medieval country like ours, you end up driving on the other side of the road. But yeah, so women's shirts, if you've ever accidentally put your wife's hoodie on or something, zipped it up, women's shirts button from the other side. They button from the left, not the right.

[1:43:33] The reason for that is that when buttons were first introduced in the 1700s, [1:43:37] they were mostly for the aristocracy and the aristocratic women were dressed by mostly right-handed servants. Whoa. So they dressed them this way. So the women's... [1:43:48] Shirts, button... If you put a... Still to this day? Same thing. Dude, I promise you now. What? Anybody that's watching, any guy that's watching, go and put your wife's shirt on. This is how it begins. Go and put your wife's shirt on and see. It doesn't fold that way. Right. It folds the other way. That's... And you have to push the buttons through with your left hand. [1:44:03] how fucking cool is that that's crazy and it's the same with hoodies you know we zip our hoodies with our right hand girls zip their hoodies with their left hand oh wow [1:44:14] So fucking cool. Weird. One other element is the gentleman of the days. They would have a sword on the left hip drawn by the right hand. [1:44:25] The way that our shirts are put together at the moment, it can't get caught in the folds. [1:44:29] because the left fold is over the top of the right. So as you draw it, there's no chance that the hilt would get caught. So if you're a left-handed person, you have to wear women's clothes. [1:44:39] That might... [1:44:39] Actually explain more than you think. Probably. [1:44:42] So this is an example of path dependency, so what you're talking about, like some shit from the past that influences the future. QWERTY keyboards. [1:44:52] Same thing. Yeah, I know that one. Typewriters. Yeah. So it was made to be inefficient. [1:44:57] to slow people down. And if you take a normal typer from a QWERTY keyboard and put them on some other formulation that's allowed, they're like 50 to 70% faster. So we're still using a designed to be inefficient keyboard.

[1:45:11] Because if you type too quickly on a typewriter and you use letters that are close together, the typewriter jams. So the letters that were used most frequently were put out onto the edges and it was less often that you were going to put two next to each other so that they wouldn't jam. I don't know a single person who switched to a different type of keyboard. Do you? No. [1:45:28] No one. [1:45:29] Lex Friedman's got some weird super nerd things. Oh, but his is just separated. He's just got to separate it. It's still quirky. Yeah. [1:45:38] It's almost like a... [1:45:40] Yeah, that's kind of interesting, but that's not the point. The point is the layout of the keys in a regular keyboard. There's other layouts. So it's not just QWERTY. It's not available. You can actually buy keyboards that have the most efficient layout. I forget what the name of it is. I think it might be the Dactyl thing. Yes. Hot Swap Dactyl. I think that's it. The very top. I think that's it. Let's see what I'm trying to do. [1:45:59] I think. Up and right. [1:46:00] Yeah. [1:46:01] Yeah. Hot swap dactyl. Maybe. [1:46:04] That's just for sale, though. [1:46:06] It's still a QWERTY keyboard. It's still QWERTY. I can't get away from it. So there's... Other layouts. If you could search what styles of key... What is the most efficient layout of keys for typing speed? [1:46:18] That's what I do. Yeah. [1:46:20] That's what it is. [1:46:21] This is what's coming up. This shit is way faster than typing. [1:46:25] Okay, yeah, right, right, right. But that's a different thing. [1:46:31] Fastest keyboard for typing. [1:46:34] You can type. Hold on. Let's look at that for a second. You haven't seen this before? No. Yeah, it's like the directions they – I'll show you on a demo.

[1:46:42] Wow. [1:46:43] Caracorder [1:46:44] This is crazy. And each one of those is a letter? [1:46:47] And some of them you can, like, make words real fast. [1:46:50] - Huh. [1:46:53] So this is a – what we're talking about right here is a totally different device than a keyboard. But what I mean is like there's another keyboard layout that super nerds use. [1:47:04] of course. [1:47:05] like a tiny amount, like the kind of people that have like, [1:47:08] They have those... [1:47:10] Google phones that don't connect to the servers. [1:47:13] you know Eric Prince make those no it's a different one he's got his own [1:47:18] Yeah, I just that path dependency thing like shit from the past that's still influencing us now. Yeah, why your shirt is going in the other direction? That's pretty crazy. I [1:47:26] Oh, so here it is. Is the new class of peripheral device that allows ordinary people to type at the speed of thought. Whoa. [1:47:35] Thank you. [1:47:35] you [1:47:36] Everything your keyboard can and much more. Whether you're coding, gaming, designing, or just typing, whatever you do, do it at the speed of thought. [1:47:48] I wonder how much of a learning curve there is. [1:47:52] to figuring out how to type with that thing because it looks pretty dope. [1:47:56] Ooh, they have different ones. Scroll up to that image at the top. [1:48:00] That's a different one. [1:48:01] I think it's the same. It's just a. But shaped different. Yeah, just like made out of metal. [1:48:05] Right, but it's a different shape. [1:48:08] You probably put your hands on it the same way. It's very different. The other one was curved. The problem that you have is, is this the new one? The forge, the master forge. Let me see what you got here. It's not showing anybody to use it. That's how I was trying to find a good way to use it to show you how they type words really fast. I think it's a matter of time before you're typing with your brain anyway. Yeah.

[1:48:27] I think this is like learning to code. [1:48:29] Yeah, I think about this with prompt engineering. If AI gets progressively better and better, [1:48:36] The idea of being a prompt engineer, I understand how to get the AI to do what I want, is a job that only shortly after it becomes a job. [1:48:44] might be made completely obsolete 100 yeah yeah that that's not going to work [1:48:50] That's like opening up a Blockbuster video in 1999. [1:48:55] It's too, you don't, they've so little time. Well, the problem that you have with the quality keyboard thing is it's a coordination problem. Like if you want to borrow your friend's laptop, you're back, unless everybody decides we're going to switch to the better type of keyboard and we're going to do it now. There you go. Here he goes. He's moving. He's typing it right there. That's, he's typing these words as he's looking at the screen. Holy shit. How's he doing that? That guy's a fucking genius. It's up to like 300 words a minute. I think people can get to. What? [1:49:19] And here's the question, like, how do you learn? [1:49:23] Do you have to play a game? Do you ever do that? Like Mavis Bacon's typing? Do you ever do that? No, what was that? It's fun. It's a game you play. It teaches you how to type. [1:49:31] It teaches you how to do the type testing? Yeah, you type things that they tell you to type. They time you like a race. It's like fun. [1:49:38] So he's like hitting all these letters at once. [1:49:40] I think with his fingers, you can see him popping up, and then it creates the word. I think it's a little bit of a mixture of, like, remember the T9 typing you could do on your phone? [1:49:49] Yeah. And you could hit four numbers, and you'd know what word it would be, and if it wasn't that word, you'd hit next like three times. You could get really good at that. I think it's a little – I think it's a mixture. Predictive. Could you rewind that again so I could see him doing that? Can you give me some volume so I could hear what he's saying?

[1:50:04] There's no question that typing sentences at over 200 words per minute is extremely satisfying, but... [1:50:10] Does typing fast actually transfer to productivity in the real world? [1:50:15] That's the question we'll be answering together in today's video. [1:50:19] Does typing speed really matter? That's nuts. Wow. [1:50:24] He just did that. [1:50:26] Wow. And he made butt large. [1:50:29] Yeah. [1:50:30] Like, he made it all caps. [1:50:33] I suppose this is kind of... I need to know if that dude's a Rain Man. You know what I'm saying? I need to ask him some questions about math. Yeah, I... [1:50:41] It's mad to think how quickly we can think and how slowly we can communicate that to other people, even with speech. Can you just please search, is there a more efficient key layout than QWERTY? [1:50:54] Because that's what I'm looking for. Because I know there is. Because I remember I went down a rabbit hole with this, and I was really thinking about trying it. And then I was like, God, what are you doing? You'd have to change your phone. [1:51:04] Yeah, and it wasn't phone days. This was way before phone days. This was the days of just typing. [1:51:10] More efficient keyboard layout than Quirky. That's it. Dvorak. That's it. [1:51:15] Puts about 65 to 70 cents of keystrokes in the home row versus roughly 30 on QWERTY. [1:51:22] So fingers move much less. So now that we know that, can you search... [1:51:27] for images of Dvorak keyboard. So that's what the keys look like right there. Oh, that's it right there. Yeah. [1:51:33] Thank you.

[1:51:34] See how different that is? [1:51:36] Wow. Yeah, very different. How long do you reckon it would take you to write out a short email? It would take forever. My stupid fingers would go right back to where they always go. You know, that was one of the things that I learned really early on from teaching martial arts. I was way would rather I would way rather teach someone who didn't know anything than teach someone who learned things wrong. [1:51:59] Because someone who learned things wrong, it's very difficult to correct their technique. [1:52:03] They have a mode in their mind that they shift to when they're panicky or when they're being pressured. They always go back to the bad technique, always. [1:52:12] It's very hard to get someone to learn technique correctly when they know it incorrectly. [1:52:18] You've got to reteach them everything. You see it with pool. There's certain tendencies that people have with their arm being out. A lot of people just accept the bad relationship between your elbow as long as it's consistent. Even though it's more inefficient, it's going to add extra English to the ball and spin and all these different things and probably make you less accurate. Maybe better that than try to make your arm drop down and hang 90% because it will feel so alien. But that's way less than in martial arts. [1:52:48] God, if you learn how to throw a sidekick with your knee down versus your knee up, it's so hard to do it the other way. When you're being pressured, you're always going to do it the wrong way and you're not going to have the correct amount of power. [1:53:02] and [1:53:03] Those tendencies that are burned into you. I've been typing for 30 fucking years. Like they are – I don't have to look at a keyboard. I can just talk to you and I can type and I'm not really good but I'm good enough. I don't look at the keys. Like I don't have to peck. Like I used to – it used to drive me crazy watching videos of Hunter Thompson who never learned how to type. He would type like this. He would type with like one finger at a time, poke and peck.

[1:53:33] Right. He never did. [1:53:34] He poked and pecked his way to some of the greatest fucking books ever. [1:53:38] Maybe that was a performance enhancer. But yeah, I... Well, he was poking and pecking when he was on coke. That's true. Yeah, it's probably for the best that he didn't type more quickly. Imagine the crazy shit that would have come out of him now. Right, right, yeah. [1:53:51] You ever seen him type? It's so frustrating. No. Can we see? Is it videos? Yeah. Oh, wow. Find Hunter Thompson typing. Yeah, you'll see it. It's pokey-pecky. And Johnny Depp actually mimicked it really accurately in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. [1:54:07] He's sitting in front of the thing, like, pecking, yeah, like, doing his Hunter Thompson impression. And his Jack Sparrow thing. Pecking and poking, yeah. Well, your brain can think. [1:54:18] at about 4,000 words a minute. And that's the same rate of fire as an M134 machine gun. Wow. So... [1:54:26] Anything, even it's your point of very soon, I think the keyboards are going to be obsolete. [1:54:31] When you think about how much fucking fidelity and speed is lost with you going from brain to thumb. Like, I wonder what another type of keyboard is. And you've got to think, okay, how do I convert this into words? Where am I going to go? Open the app. Type the – oh, crap, man. Fucking keyboard. Keyboard. Yes. But it is so slow compared with when we just get neural linked up to each other. Yeah. And I'm sure you've seen that demonstration where the two guys are sitting across from each other. [1:55:01] The headset's on. They're asking each other a question and answering the questions without using words. No, I've not seen that. You haven't seen that? No. All right. We'll show you that next.

[1:55:08] What were we just looking up now? I can't. I find pictures of him typing, but not video of him typing. Oh, God. I don't see it. Let me get to the bathroom. Let me get to the bathroom. We'll be right back, ladies and gentlemen. It's time to pee. Where were we? Somebody typing like a grandma. Yeah, the Hunter Thompson thing. He couldn't really find it. [1:55:26] You got Johnny Depp doing it? Okay, this is how he typed. This is completely accurate. This is a great video, by the way. You should listen to this. It's really... [1:55:33] It's an amazing piece. You've got to cut it out? [1:55:38] Okay, we'll cut it out. But that's it. That's how he poked. He poked and pecked like that. So that's how Hunter Thompson used to type. [1:55:48] out of his fucking bird just poking telepathic video too oh you found that okay okay this is the crazy one the telepathic thing is nuts because they have these headsets on these guys are laughing because they're asking each other questions and they're answering the questions and they hear the answer in their heads [1:56:05] They hear the other person hears the question and then they hear the answer. [1:56:09] So that's a [1:56:10] I don't know if it's a product or what, but it's called Alter Ego. This is the same guy who developed that device where he could look things up without opening his mouth or talking and just sort of like mimicking things. [1:56:21] The words in his... [1:56:24] We all have moments when inspiration strikes. I'm sort of doing the same thing. I'm sort of skipping past this until he's talking. He's showing it... [1:56:29] On his own here, the cool part is when he brings in someone else to talk to. [1:56:35] And this guy also has it. So they're communicating. Where do you want to get lunch after this? Where do you want to get lunch after this?

[1:56:45] For the demo, they hooked it up to audio so that the video could hear it. [1:56:48] Thank you. [1:56:51] Thai food could be good. [1:56:53] So they're laughing because their words are being... It doesn't matter where Arnav and I are. [1:56:57] It could be a noisy environment. So would they hear this? Yeah. Conversations are it could be a noisy environment or a quiet office. Having a direct conversation is possible without saying a word. The signals alter ego detects aren't affected by environmental noise. So even if you're walking past a wind tunnel or a construction zone, what you want to say will always get across. It's like having infinite noise cancellation. Exactly what people say happens when they encounter aliens. [1:57:25] Exactly, exactly. Someone's talking in your head and you hear it. [1:57:32] So imagine this technology scaled out a thousand years and they probably don't need the other person to have a headset anymore. [1:57:39] and they just would make for an interesting podcast [1:57:43] Yeah, I guess. And you could just tune in and nobody needs to actually listen to anything. So where's the sound? Are they hearing the sound in a set of headphones? It's hard. Not headphones. No. They know it. [1:57:56] Right? They're not hearing it. I understand how – I don't understand. Because if it was really loud, then you wouldn't be able to hear it. So, yeah, for the demo we just watched, they have up to a speaker so we can hear what they're hearing. But I think, if anything, it's got to be some sort of jaw induction, but I don't know that for sure. Well, there's weird earphones that you could put on that don't go in your ear. They go behind your ear, and they send the sound into your dome. People use that for running, right, so they can still hear the sound that's going around them. Yeah, fucking creeps hiding in the bushes.

[1:58:26] so they can hear the creeps, so they can get ready for them. You know Cam Haynes, right? My buddy Cam? His brother almost got killed by a mountain lion. [1:58:35] Crazy story. He put it on his Instagram. The day, the next day, like he talked about the story, what happened. He was running and there was a mountain lion in the bushes. And at first he thought it was a coyote. He just saw the eyes. He yelled and then stood up and he realized it was a cat. And it started running after him. And he's running at night as in California. And he kicked rocks at it. He screamed at it. [1:58:59] And ultimately there's some dogs barking and he thinks maybe the dogs barking scared the mountain line off him. But he said it was like... [1:59:06] I couldn't have used bear spray even if I had it because it would have got on me. That's how close it was. [1:59:14] So it was right there, like right on him. So it was the most scary he's ever been in his life. I've seen that video of the guy tracking backward. Oh, yeah. As it's coming toward him. It's, ah! It's coming swinging. [1:59:25] The only thing that gives me comfort about that video if I was there is like that thing just wants to scare me. [1:59:30] It's not trying to kill me. It wants to scare me. That's a mother that's trying to get you away from the cubs. Because the way it's doing it... [1:59:35] It's throwing its arms in the air in a very intimidating way. If an animal is trying to kill you, it wouldn't do that. [1:59:41] They'd be running full clip at you and just dive on your neck. That's the difference between a cat that wants to kill you and something that's trying to scare you off. So the problem is you're backing up, right, and the instincts of these predators. Like if you throw a ball of yarn by a kitten, they dive on that ball of yarn. They can't help themselves. And that's the thing about you backing up or even you running. It's like you're exciting their prey drive. Yeah, they're going to keep tracking you. Right. So they tell you to stand tall and be loud and make a lot of noise.

[2:00:11] There's a fine line between you being a threat and them being scared off, like you being something they have to deal with, depending upon the distance between each other. [2:00:22] That makes so much sense. Yeah. Have you ever had any run-ins? I have never had an encounter like that, but I did in the wild see an enormous mountain line once. But fortunately, it was from inside of a truck. [2:00:36] Yeah. [2:00:37] Me and my friend Colton, we were in Utah. We were taking this turn, and it was at dusk. So the sun was setting, and he stops the truck, and he goes, look at that cat. And I go, where? And we'll look over, and I see the glowing eyes from the setting sun, the glowing eyes reflecting underneath this tree. And it's got this pumpkin head, this big fucking, these mandible muscles that just crush things, and these massive forearms. And it's just sitting. It's a big cat, man. [2:01:07] I've seen two other mountain lions before, but they were small. They were like a dog-sized. This thing was fucking big. [2:01:14] big. Do you reckon you'd be able to take a dog-sized mountain lion or are you still dead? No, you're dead. Yeah, I mean a cat-sized cat might fuck you up. A house cat might fuck you up. A bobcat might fuck you up. A mountain lion will kill you. [2:01:27] You know, you'd have to be an extraordinary person with weapons to survive a mountain lion hand-to-hand fight. [2:01:35] You'd have to be an extraordinary person who's really fighting to survive. And you don't panic at all. You have to be willing to stay calm. This thing's going to tear your arms apart. It might tear your face apart. What are the basic? I mean, you hunt all the time. And you do, was it like end of September, you went and did another big one last year? Yeah, elk hunting, yeah. You must have been given whatever the safety briefing that you have at the start of an aircraft taking off is of,

[2:02:05] No, we don't get any safety briefings. But you must have learned it in the past, right, as a part of... Safety briefing. Carry a gun. Bring a gun with you. Point at a big scary thing. Even if you're bow hunting, carry a pistol, especially if you're in bear country. If you're in bear country, you can't depend on this mist making their eyes hurt, keeping them off of you, because it might not work. Or just run through it. Yeah, there was a recent case in B.C., [2:02:31] where a bear mauled 11 people. [2:02:34] and they used bear spray on it, and it didn't work. [2:02:37] It's real. I think it was a teacher protecting his students. So shout out to that teacher. He got fucked up. But they tried bear spray. Bear spray is not effective. My friend John, who lives up in Alberta, he used bear spray on a grizzly once. He said it walked right through. It was nothing. Is bear spray basically like hardcore pepper spray? Yeah. It's like vicious pepper spray. But you're just going to get a mad bear. [2:03:00] you know [2:03:01] Why don't they make more hardcore bear spray then? It's as hardcore as it gets without killing you. Right. You know, if it gets on you. If it's that noxious, yeah. It's just supposed to be a deterrent. And sometimes it can work. Like sometimes maybe they're just curious and you spray them and they're like, fuck this guy. And they get out of there. But maybe sometimes no. You know, because it's like tasing a guy. You ever see a guy get tased and they just fucking run through it? There's guys who get tased and they just go stiff and they fall down. [2:03:31] it right out of their arm. [2:03:32] Four people, including children, were hospitalized. A teacher on crutches, a second adult with bear spray, and a third person who punched and kicked a grizzly despite serious injuries are being praised for their actions. A school group attacked by a bear near Bella Coola, British Columbia.

[2:03:51] Four people, including the children, were hospitalized Thursday after a bear attack on students and teachers in the Nux Walk First Nation while out on a school trip near the – boy, I'm going to fuck this up. [2:04:08] school east of the remote community. Oh, so it was a very remote place. [2:04:13] Yeah. Bear spray didn't do anything, man. He said, look, nothing phased it, didn't do anything to the bear. Two cans of spray in the eyes of the animal. Look at that. [2:04:23] They said the teacher unloaded two cans of bear spray into the eyes of the animal, and it didn't do anything. It blows my mind that people who have been through something that scary... When the kids were getting attacked, one of my cousins who had his skull ripped ran towards the bear and jumped on it with his bare hands. Holy shit. [2:04:40] It's pretty hardcore. That's hard. Well, that's primal life. That's survival in a real situation where your language goes away. Another lady, a teacher with crutches, was whacking it, hitting it in the eyes, the face, the head. [2:04:55] for minutes and then the bear finally... Imagine being on crutches. - Oh my God. [2:05:01] Well, it's just survival. It's so reptilian. It's like a savage, savage moment. That's what blows my mind about these... [2:05:11] situations where [2:05:13] emotions are running so high. [2:05:16] how people are able to come back with any kind of memory at all. Right. Because that amount of adrenaline just completely warps people's memories. I was learning about this...

[2:05:27] case from Australia in the 70s. This lady gets attacked inside of a home. So a guy breaks into the house and assaults her. [2:05:37] inside of her home, and she identifies this TV psychologist, this guy called Donald Thompson, says this was the person who assaulted me. The TV psychologist? TV psychologist, yeah, yeah, yeah. So she knew this guy from the TV. [2:05:48] He was the guy that assaulted me. That night, the police go and they arrest Donald Thompson, take him in. The next day, there's a lineup and the woman positively identifies him. And Donald Thompson's like... [2:06:02] That couldn't have been me. [2:06:04] Because I was actually on television in front of a live audience at the time. The arresting officer like scoffs at him and basically says, you might as well have Jesus and the Queen of England as your alibis as well. Like, this is ridiculous. We know that she's been assaulted. We know that she's been assaulted. [2:06:19] We've got photographic evidence of the marks on her. We've done a DNA test, which is going to come back soon. She's positively identified you from the lineup, and she called you out before you were in the lineup as well. Like you're bang to rights. But there was a wrinkle. [2:06:33] that when they actually looked at the timing [2:06:36] He was on TV... [2:06:38] at the time that this was happening. And what had occurred [2:06:41] was... [2:06:41] The woman had had that television program on while... [2:06:46] The attacker broke in. [2:06:47] and sexually assaulted. Whoa. And it imprinted that guy's face in her memory. Bingo. Wow. Blended. [2:06:57] the attacker's identity

[2:06:59] with what she was seeing on TV while it happened. [2:07:03] Wow. And the kicker [2:07:05] Donald Thompson was on TV to discuss an area of psychological speciality that he had. [2:07:11] which was the unreliability of eyewitness testimony. [2:07:14] Whoa. [2:07:17] Dude. [2:07:19] Whoa. [2:07:23] Did you see that... [2:07:26] Someone sent me this video. Pause this for a second. Darren Brown, the sidekick. Have you seen the one? British dude. Yes. [2:07:33] We're both. [2:07:34] Have you seen the one where he... [2:07:37] He got a guy to assassinate Stephen Frye. [2:07:42] Oh, yes. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. [2:07:46] Fuck. [2:07:47] Yeah, like MKUltra the guy to take out an assassin. They called us the jump or something, or the push? Yeah. The push, was it the push? I don't remember, but I watched a clip of it the other day. I'm like, this is... [2:07:57] This is so crazy that you can actually do this to someone. [2:08:01] And the point of the article that I was reading on, or the post on X, was you're telling me that MKUltra has not figured out a way to do this? [2:08:11] You can get a guy to do it with cameras, to do it on Stephen Fry, the comedian. [2:08:18] And obviously, he didn't really kill them, but... [2:08:21] - Okay. [2:08:22] I had a... [2:08:23] Oh, yeah, here it is. Yeah. So, The Assassin with Stephen Fry. [2:08:29] So... [2:08:29] He somehow or another gets this guy to do it.

[2:08:33] I guess we can't play it, but... [2:08:36] The point is... [2:08:39] Fake gun? I don't remember what he did. Oh shit, they acted it all out too. [2:08:46] That is so crazy. That's crazy. That's so crazy. So that guy really thought he killed Stephen Fry. Imagine being in the crowd. [2:08:52] How about those people next to him who didn't even flinch? I'd be like, what kind of psychos am I next to him? She's the one whispering to her. Watch, she whispers. She's like, good job. I think she's the one who set him off. Oh! [2:09:03] She's in on it. Now, here's the question. Is this – can anybody – She's took the gun. Yeah. Can anybody fall into that kind of a hypnosis? Is that – [2:09:13] Only certain people that are suggestible? There's high, medium, and low suggestibility people. [2:09:20] And there's a couple of tests. Dr. David Spiegel. [2:09:23] from Stanford. He's like one of the world leaders in hypnosis. And he explained some people are [2:09:31] more susceptible to hypnosis than others, I have to assume. [2:09:34] that Darren will have done a profile, and this guy is, like, really, really susceptible. Okay, what's that about? [2:09:40] Why is that around? [2:09:41] susceptibility to hypnosis. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that dopamine plays a big part of it. [2:09:47] And if you process dopamine more quickly... [2:09:50] you are more susceptible. I process dopamine really slowly. [2:09:54] I know that from doing some genetic tests. So I know that my susceptibility to hypnosis would be lower. There's some personality traits that make you more or less likely as well. I think agreeableness versus disagreeableness is one of them.

[2:10:04] Um, [2:10:05] I think there'll be a sex difference, too. I don't know why it's there. It's kind of the same as saying, like, why are some people taller than others? Like, they just are, and there's, like, a byproduct that comes along for the ride. But it's a weird... [2:10:16] thing to be able to manipulate a person's mind and to have it so clearly – [2:10:24] I mean, this is the clearest example of it you're ever going to see. He just shot a famous person. [2:10:29] in a room full of people. It does feel like a weird back door. Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. Like... [2:10:35] It's like those voting systems that can be hacked. Well, there's... Or like those cell phone towers they buy from China that turn out to be transmitted. Sending everything back to China. I think... Why does that exist? That David Spiegel guy taught me that... [2:10:53] 25% of people that do a single session intervention for smoking cessation quit for life. From hypnosis? One session, 25%. Get this. And I think if you do a couple of sessions, that number starts to go up and go up. So hypnosis is this really weird... [2:11:09] backdoor into the human psyche. But yeah, the memory thing is fucking crazy when you think about [2:11:15] what do I actually know? Like, how do I know that this thing happened in the past? Right. So, um... [2:11:21] Most people understand... There's like two types of memory failure. One is, I can't remember that thing. And the other is... [2:11:28] I remember it, but I remember it incorrectly. Right. That's broadly two categories. And I think people are really happy with the first one. [2:11:33] Because there's [2:11:34] tons of shit that has happened to you. And you go, yeah, I forget my memory or whatever,

[2:11:38] your experience of your own memory is your only experience of your own memory. So for you to be able to say, my recollection is wrong, what does that mean? [2:11:47] That's like saying this dimension that I'm in is wrong. So a lot of the time, I think people struggle to understand how often their memory of a thing [2:11:55] is present but inaccurate. So for instance, there's only 17 colors that we remember on average. We don't remember, like if I asked you what colors are tomato, [2:12:06] Well, I would say red, but really it's not. If it's heirloom... [2:12:11] typically red but it's like a ready orange sort of color sure but those are the bullshit tomatoes like a real heirloom i didn't need to get into different sort of tomato that's a real tomato though that's what a tomato really looks like sorry i know supermarket tomato kind of reddish reddish reddish oranges but most people would default to the red thing right but not really yeah but it's not and we sort of we adjust right so if you're like we're white people [2:12:37] Uh-huh. But we're not really white. [2:12:39] Well, I mean, you were a bit flush. [2:12:41] Yeah, but we're not white. You know what I'm saying? Like, like, my friend Jamie, not this one, but another one. He's from England, and he's white like paper. And when my daughter first met him, that's what she said. She goes, Mommy, he's so white. And she goes, Yeah, he's white. And she goes, No, no, he's white like paper.

[2:13:00] Well, if you live in England, you will be referred to as white like paper. Yeah. If you've got I mean, this must be the same with fighters. Even if you forget the... [2:13:09] TBI head trauma-y stuff, just the dump of adrenaline from going through. I mean, you must have done this when you've done your biggest shows. [2:13:17] Yeah, you don't remember much. You come back and you're like... [2:13:20] I've worked my whole life [2:13:21] to get to the stage where I can achieve this thing [2:13:25] And in the achievement of this thing... [2:13:27] I kind of wasn't [2:13:28] really there. Well, I was there for it, but in [2:13:31] retrospect, I can't really recall where I was. It's this odd duality that you want to be in a flow state. Yeah. Yeah. [2:13:38] because [2:13:38] It's very fulfilling, it's where you're at your best, the words just coming out of you perfectly. [2:13:43] And when you look back, you're like, [2:13:46] I... [2:13:46] I don't know if I was there fully. I feel like I was kind of absent. [2:13:51] Well, it's not that you're absent, but that you're empty. You empty out all your expectations and you're on it for the ride. You're not really piloting it as much as you're just like making sure it doesn't hit the rocks. [2:14:05] You're there for the ride. The thing takes over. [2:14:08] I think that's the case with everything. That's the case when you're in the flow state of anything you're doing when you're really like you're the more you think about you being there. [2:14:18] which is what you have to do if you're there. You're thinking about you. So it's like wasted resources. You're better off being empty and just like being a vessel and just like taking this thing. Like you've done the work already. Like take it along for the ride.

[2:14:32] Just go for the ride. That's what it is. And so the problem with that is if you don't record your set... [2:14:38] Sometimes you'll say things that you don't remember, like they were really funny. And you're like, oh, I had a totally different... [2:14:45] point that I went off and it really worked, but I don't remember what it was. If you don't record it, you're fucked. The only way you can get it back is you have to get back to that exact spot and hope it's still there for the next show. [2:14:57] Sometimes it will be. Sometimes it will be. It's waiting for you as a little gift. Sometimes that angle pops up again. You're like, oh, yeah, but why are we doing this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're like, oh, I almost forgot it. That must be a nightmare or must have been a nightmare before you could record sets. Yeah, but you've always been able to record sets. That's one of the things I learned really early on from this guy, Mike Donovan. It was one of the big comics in Boston. He goes, always record your sets because you never know when you're going to say something. And it'll be lost forever if you don't have a recording. [2:15:26] Scheffler [2:15:27] uh, golfer. He won. Jamie, you'll have seen this video. Can we get the, that it's a, there's a New York, uh, sports video like cut. He does this. It's, [2:15:38] such a fucking cool [2:15:40] explanation of what somebody who's got to the peak of their spot, the absolute pinnacle, like in the moments of winning, and he just... [2:15:47] breaks the fourth wall open about kind of the hollowness. [2:15:51] of what this is. Really? Yeah, it's really fascinating. Like, what's the point, that thing? Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, um, it's just, it's just such a fucking great explainer, because we always assume, here we go. Let me hear this.

[2:16:07] You might have just won the U.S. Open here, too, by the way, which is like the biggest event of the year. [2:16:11] - - [2:16:12] life. It's fulfilling from a sense of accomplishment, but it's not fulfilling from a sense of the deepest... [2:16:18] you know, [2:16:19] places of your heart. I think it's kind of funny. I think [2:16:22] You know, I think I said something after the Byron this year about, like, [2:16:28] It feels like you work your whole life to celebrate Christ. [2:16:31] winning a tournament for like a [2:16:33] a few minutes. It only lasts [2:16:35] a few minutes that kind of euphoric feeling and i like to win the byron elson championship at home i literally worked my entire life become good at golf to have an opportunity to win that tournament [2:16:44] And you win it, you celebrate, get to hug my family, my sisters there. It's such an amazing moment. [2:16:50] And then it's like... [2:16:52] Okay, now what are we going to eat for dinner? Life goes on. [2:16:58] Is it great to be able to win tournaments and to accomplish the things I haven't in the game of golf yet? [2:17:03] It brings tears to my eyes just to think about because it's [2:17:06] Literally worked my entire life to become good at the sport and to have that kind of sense of accomplishment, I think is. [2:17:13] is a pretty cool feeling. You know, to get to live out your dreams is very special. But at the end of the day, [2:17:17] It's like, I'm not out here to inspire the next generation of golfers. I'm not here to inspire somebody else to be the best player in the world, because what's the point? [2:17:26] a fulfilling [2:17:29] It's fulfilling from a sense of accomplishment, but it's not fulfilling from a sense of the deepest... [2:17:34] you know, [2:17:35] places of your heart. You know, there's a lot of people that make it

[2:17:37] to [2:17:38] what they thought was going to fulfill them in life. And then you get there and all of a sudden you get to number one in the world and they're like, what's the point? [2:17:44] and [2:17:45] You know, I really do believe that because, you know, what is the point? Like, why do I want to win this tournament so bad? That's something that I wrestle with on a daily basis. It's like showing up at the Masters every year. It's like, why? [2:17:56] do I want to win this golf tournament so badly? [2:17:58] Why do I want to win the Open Championship so badly? [2:18:01] I don't know, because if I win, it's going to be awesome for about two minutes. [2:18:06] And then we're going to get to the next week, and it's going to be like, hey, you won two majors this year. How important is it for you to win the FedExCup playoffs? It's just like – [2:18:12] we're back here again you know so we really do we work so hard for such little moments and [2:18:18] You know, I'm kind of a sicko. I love putting in the work. I love being able to practice. I love getting out to live out my dreams. But at the end of the day, sometimes I just don't understand the point. [2:18:27] That's honest. That's what that is. [2:18:30] I love that video so much. That's why he's so good. I love that video so much. I guarantee you that's why he's so good because I guarantee you that guy has to be that honest with himself about everything. Otherwise, you'd never fix the hitch in your swing. [2:18:42] You know, you have to be honest about every single thing. [2:18:47] You have to be aware of all of it. Every little weird fucking thing you do, why am I doing this? Like, what is the point of this? And then when you're done, like, yeah, I did it. And then it's going to creep right back in. [2:18:58] Creep right back in. Nike did a commercial after that, and it's him with his son... [2:19:05] sort of kneeling down on the green, and it says, "You've already won."

[2:19:11] And then I think the next slide is, but let's get another one. It's so fucking cool, dude. There it is. You've already won. [2:19:20] But another major never hurt. That was a... Wow. Bro... [2:19:23] Yeah. Fucking unbelievable. So I think... [2:19:26] I kind of become obsessed with [2:19:27] Um... [2:19:29] People sacrificing what they want, which is happiness. [2:19:33] for the thing that's supposed to get it, which is success. So they sacrifice the thing that they want, [2:19:38] being happy in the moment. They make themselves miserable in order to be able to achieve a thing so that when they finally have sufficient success, they will allow themselves to be happy. [2:19:48] It's like a very strange trade. Imagine if you had some simultaneous equation and you just crossed off success from both sides. You would sort of be left with happiness. I think that's unrealistic, right, because we need happiness. [2:19:57] Social validation from people. And we want to be recognized. We want to do stuff. We've got to put food on the table and social creatures and all the rest of it. But I think videos like that [2:20:07] uh... [2:20:08] really important for people to see when they look up to someone about [2:20:13] How much there is there? [2:20:15] at the end of the rainbow. Like, [2:20:18] Elon was on Lex's show a couple of years ago and... [2:20:21] I think Lex asked him some question like, "How are you doing?" He replied and he said, [2:20:25] People think they want to be me. [2:20:27] They do not want to be me. They don't know. They don't understand. My mind is a storm. I'm like, that's the price you need to pay to be Elon Musk. I think that was on this podcast. Was it this one? Yeah, because I asked him, like, what is it like? [2:20:40] to be like, it's like,

[2:20:41] You wouldn't want to do it. [2:20:43] You wouldn't want to be me. [2:20:44] And you could tell when you're in his eyes. [2:20:47] Like, there's... It's not a normal thought process. Right. [2:20:51] It's like this chaotic tornado of ideas that's running around in his head. You know, and sometimes he spits them out on Twitter and they're not good. Well, it's a problem when you're on the platform, right? It's kind of like, I can say what I want. It's my own house. Well, he can, though. But he's like that all the time. He's fun. He's like what I would want to do. [2:21:10] see from a guy who's a super genius like a playful guy who wants to go to mars who's making like jamie and i went on a tour of uh starship starbase what is it spacex starbase whatever the fuck it is uh we saw the launch we went to the spacex launch and so we got a tour of the rocket factory which is fucking insane it's so much more insane than i thought i was going to be [2:21:35] I mean, I can't really, I don't know how much we can even say, but it is. [2:21:39] Nuts. It's nuts. And the sheer quantity of rockets that they're making is mind-blowing. [2:21:46] Like, you're like, I had no, I thought they had a couple of rockets. [2:21:49] Just a couple rockets laying around. They're just making rockets. I'm pretty sure they've put more stuff into space now. [2:21:55] just that one company than like the entirety of the load that's being transported into space globally up until now. They put stuff in space for their competitors. [2:22:06] Yeah, they use their space rockets to put stuff in space for people that they're in competition with. Yeah, they take the money. Show me the color of your money. Yeah, we know how to do it. We're better at it than you, so we'll do it. Fucking unbelievable, dude. It's kind of nuts. I think about that.

[2:22:21] Like the sort of person you need to be to drive that though. It's a different kind of person, right? Like that's what he wants to do. That's what he desires to do. And, you know – [2:22:30] this gentleman talking about golf, like... [2:22:33] This is a different... [2:22:34] That's a totally different thing because he's in a competition all the time. [2:22:39] You know, and it's really hard to just enjoy the process. [2:22:43] when you're in this competition where especially if your livelihood depends upon a very specific result like you have to be better at this thing than everybody else not just do the best yourself but better than the other people that are also doing their best so you're in this constant just never escaping this pressure fighters feel that i think more than anybody because it's like an actual physical person coming to harm you all the time and you're very outcome focused yeah i'd [2:23:13] him saying, "I love the process, I'm a bit of a sicko, "I like my training," so on and so forth. [2:23:20] It's very different saying I enjoy the process of training. [2:23:29] The Beard and Dome Bundle from Manscaped is a really solid option. I've been using their Dome Shaver for a while now, and the thing I like about it is how easy it makes everything. You don't have to think about it. It just glides over your head, gets everything clean, no weird patches, no going over the same spot ten times. Honestly, it's so much better than anything. [2:23:49] any of the other brands I've tried. And then there's the Beard Hedger. It's got this zoom wheel with 20 different length settings that's built right in. So if you want to get your dad something he'll actually use, the Beard and Dome bundle for Manscaped is an easy pick. Get 15% off plus free shipping with the code ROGAN15 at manscaped.com. That's 15% off plus free shipping with code ROGAN15 at manscaped.com.

[2:24:19] ZipRecruiter. When you're looking to hire, you consider someone's skills, experience, availability, but even more important than that is someone's enthusiasm. They should want to be there. Finding the right kind of motivation isn't as tough as you think. You just need ZipRecruiter. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. ZipRecruiter connects you with qualified [2:24:49] ones at the top of your list so you can make sure you're speaking with the right people at the start. Use ZipRecruiter and find enthusiastic talent fast. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And now you can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. That's ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Good evening. [2:25:18] When you've just won, then I enjoy the process of training when you've just come second or fifth or 20th. Right. And especially if you're laid out flat on the canvas. Yeah, especially that. If that's your humiliation. There's also the damage that was just done to you where you might not – really might not be the same again. And there's certain fighters that you could point to one fight and they never recovered from it. [2:25:40] Yeah. Meldrick Taylor versus Julio Cesar Chavez is my personal one that I always point to because Julio Cesar Chavez knocked him out with like – [2:25:49] I think it was like a couple seconds left in the last round, stopped him. And it was a fight that Meldrick Taylor was winning a decision. But Julio Cesar Chavez was wearing him down. He was one of the greatest of all time, just ripping the body, constantly attacking him. And eventually broke him down, had him in a corner, boom, dropped him with a right hand. And he got up, and the referee called the fight with like a couple of seconds to go. And it was a hugely controversial call. But then when Meldrick Taylor returned, he was never the same again. He started slurring his words really badly. So it's a physical issue?

[2:26:19] He's knocked out easily. He's getting dropped easily. It was gone. It was all gone. That fight just took it all out of him. [2:26:26] You see that. So there's that too. It's not just you're going to lose a golf tournament. Like you might get your brains punched in. Physical repercussions. Huge physical repercussions. For a vicious knockout, huge. Some guys are never the same again and much more likely to get knocked out again. Yeah. [2:26:42] Once they get knocked out really badly. [2:26:44] Who do you think of all of the people that you know, [2:26:47] has got the right balance of is successful and is also having fun at the same time. Because it seems like that's a trade that a lot of people can make where – [2:26:57] they are... [2:26:59] successful but they sacrifice their happiness or they're kind of happy but they're not pursuing external successes in the same way i would say comedians i would say chappelle chappelle's probably the most successful guy that's genuinely happy [2:27:10] I mean, he certainly has a lot of moments in deep thought. [2:27:13] But when you're hanging around with him, he's a lovely person. He's a happy, lovely guy. [2:27:20] so sweet and so smart and so self-deprecating and interesting and so great at what he does. [2:27:27] But – [2:27:28] When you're hanging out with him, it's just a hang. He's just having fun, laughing a lot, got a great crew. He always keeps his circle tight with cool people and just has a great time. Have you deconstructed what that is, like what the contributing elements are? [2:27:45] I think he just – he's doing it – well, he's a very unusual person, right? So you're talking about Dave Chappelle when Chappelle's show was the number one comedy in the country. It was the greatest sketch show. I think it was the greatest sketch show of all time. And it was only two seasons.

[2:28:03] Right. And then they offered him an enormous amount of money. I think it was 50 million dollars. [2:28:08] And they wanted to change a bunch of stuff. They wanted him to stop saying certain words. They wanted him to stop doing this, stop doing that. And he didn't like it. And she said... [2:28:17] I quit. [2:28:18] And he went to Africa and just fucking hung out in Africa and then came back. When he came back, he stopped doing stand-up. He would do stand-up. I remember one time he did stand-up in a park in Seattle. So he showed up. He had – [2:28:34] little speakers with them and a microphone and just did stand up for free to these people just hung out [2:28:38] In Seattle, just did stand-up. And he would do stuff like that, show up places and just do stand-up occasionally. I mean for 10 fucking years. He was like a monk on a walkabout. How did he stay sharp? [2:28:54] Well, I don't think he ever stopped thinking about things the same way. [2:28:57] And he wasn't as sharp when he came back. There's one famous video from him in Hartford, Connecticut, where he bombed. But I always tell people stay out of Connecticut. But that's not the point. It's like, you know, England's depressed. But the point was then eventually he started – [2:29:16] touring regularly got it all back plus then some and then is now widely regarded as if not the greatest of all time he's in the consideration there's like prior him murphy kinnison lenny bruce carlin for some there's like a bunch of different people that you put into like the greatest of all time and dave is certainly in that group but he's very happy he's a happy guy i mean certainly there's cultural issues that play that trouble him and life issues that everybody goes

[2:29:46] a pretty balanced guy for someone who's ultra successful. But he's not stepping outside of his lane either. What he's really concentrating on and almost exclusively concentrating on is doing stand-up comedy. And he will travel. He will get in a jet and fly to New York unannounced and just show up at clubs and start doing stand-up. [2:30:04] And he's done this forever. [2:30:06] One time I was in Colorado, and – [2:30:09] I've known Dave forever. I met Dave when he was like 19 and I was like, I guess I was like 23 or 24. We were both very young. [2:30:17] And even back then, I was like, this kid is so talented. It was, it was like remarkable how poised he was on stage, like as a 19 year old kid. Um, [2:30:27] He will just show up places. I was in Colorado doing standup. I was at the comedy works. I get off stage. It was on a Friday night. I go into the green room and Dave's there. [2:30:38] He doesn't live in Colorado. He just flew to Colorado because he knew I was going to be there and he wanted to do comedy. And so I go, do you want to do a set? He goes, should I? I go, yes. I go, hold on. So I went back on stage. The show was over. I go, everybody, yell at the people that are on the stairs to come back. Dave Chappelle is here. And half the crowd had already got up and left. They all come back, everyone. Everyone tells everyone they're yelling it up the stairs. Dave Chappelle is here. Come back. I bring him on stage. Everybody goes crazy. And he does like 45 minutes. [2:31:08] Thank you. [2:31:08] Just fucking around. It was back in the grab-em-by-the-pussy days. So he had this whole – like he said, grab-em-by-the-pussy. This whole bit, like it just happened that week. And he had this giant – and he just wanted to just go places and do comedy. So he's not doing it for money, right? He's not getting paid to do this show. He would show up in New York. He's not getting paid to do The Stand or wherever these clubs that he just shows up in. He's just working. He's just working on the craft of comedy. So his mindset is not –

[2:31:34] Try to make the most amount of money with stand-up because if he was doing that, he would do an arena every night. But he could do an arena every night of the week all over the world and make way more money. But that's not what he's doing. What he's doing is working on the craft of comedy. He has plenty of money. He has all this money from all these Netflix specials. They pay him an exorbitant amount of money. And he makes all this money when he does do the big shows. So he's got plenty of money. So it's not money. It's just the craft. It's just the art, the new set, the new bits, the new thing. [2:32:04] sets so he's got like a guy they're filming every one of his sets and they break them down like this rant that rant because he'll like ask questions to people in the audience he'll do like an hour and a half on stage just fucking around with a small crowd somewhere but there's a gem in there somewhere and then they take that gem and then they hit it and expands upon it he'll go over it and break it down so his process is all just about the art [2:32:29] And I think because of that, the love of the art is what keeps him happy. [2:32:34] I think it was just the love of the money and you're constantly keeping score. Who's the number one touring act? And you're looking at the fucking ticket master. Oh, Jesus Christ. Kevin Hart's got me beat. Son of a bitch. I got to do two shows a night now. Yeah, that's matinee. Yeah. People get nutty. They get nutty and they really do get themselves. You see in the podcast world as well. People really get obsessed with the number of the rankings and like who's making more and who's doing this. Yeah. [2:33:01] just do what you do. Well, the problem that you're going to come up against there is you are going to try and trade

[2:33:09] Thank you. [2:33:10] The outcome that you're looking for for the fuel that gets you there. The fuel that gets you there is how much you love what you're doing. Yes. So I've been thinking. That's what gets you to the dance. Correct. I've been thinking so much about the shame of simple pleasures. Right. [2:33:23] So there's this quote from a guy called Visikan Barasimi that says, "I have not yet grown wise enough to deeply enjoy simple things." [2:33:31] And I just love the idea of it, that most of us are kind of [2:33:35] Terrible accountants of our own joy that we only accept deposits when the transaction's large enough, right? The day that we get married or the night that we play the main stage at Glastonbury or sell out the arena. Anything less than that. And it doesn't even make the ledger. So we treat small pleasures. [2:33:53] like counterfeit currency [2:33:55] and [2:33:56] We think like... [2:33:59] we have a kind of not disgust but rejection [2:34:03] of, oh, that small thing made you weak. [2:34:08] that tiny incident made your day. You must not have a lot going on. Like how weak and how small must your life be that... [2:34:17] Seeing a cute golden retriever this afternoon was like a fucking sick part of your day. [2:34:22] I think about [2:34:24] Scotty Schaeffler is a good example. [2:34:26] him making it all the way to the top. And if all that you were doing was waiting for that final moment for this main stage at Glastonbury, day that I get married, sell the business for $500 million, whatever, whatever, [2:34:38] You are... [2:34:39] forgetting almost all of the journey.

[2:34:42] and then just cashing in at the destination. And there's the guy that's just won everything in all of fucking golf, like the goat of right now, is saying... [2:34:50] It's fleeting. It's really, really short. [2:34:53] It's not going to last for very long. [2:34:55] And that shame that people have, I certainly know that I do as well, that it almost feels like a reflection on the smallness of my life if I take pleasure in little things. [2:35:06] But... [2:35:06] when you take pleasure in little things, you don't just get more of them. You get them right now. You don't need to wait. You don't need to, like, be a fucking world champion at winning the marshmallow test, just delaying gratification so long that you never actually end up getting any gratification. [2:35:19] Yeah. The problem with that thought process is to achieve true greatness – [2:35:25] You must be mad. [2:35:27] Madness and greatness are... [2:35:30] inextricably connected. [2:35:32] You can't separate them. To get true greatness, there has to be some demons. There has to be a mad struggle in your mind. And you have to want it so badly. You have to want that result so badly that you are willing to put in more time, more effort, more focus, more hours. [2:35:54] And just... [2:35:55] You don't get to smell the roses, man. You don't. You don't get to pet the puppies. You do. But you don't. You're petting the puppy thinking about the thing that you do, thinking about getting better because you need those resources. It's like a demon that sort of climbs inside of you and wears you. Yeah. You know who Ronnie O'Sullivan is? Yeah, the snooker player. Yeah, the greatest of all time. Like there's certain people in certain sports. I'm going to send you something, Jamie. So you see what a wizard this guy is. I'm actually in the middle of his book.

[2:36:25] you [2:36:25] pool player recommended this book. Oh no, I'm sorry. Tyler Steiler, who's another top flight pool player, like world-class pool player recommended this book. And, uh, [2:36:36] Um... [2:36:37] I started the book and I can't stop it. It's so good. It's about – [2:36:41] I think it's fairly recent because it's post-COVID. [2:36:46] I thought it was going – he recommended it because of the way Ronnie describes picking the perfect cue, like the relationship that he has with the cue. But it is so eloquent and so – but the story – the whole – [2:36:59] story, the whole book rather, the story of his life is really more of [2:37:06] it's an, [2:37:07] exercise [2:37:09] in him trying to explain... [2:37:13] like what it's like to be this good and this mad like he's a madman like watch this watch this watch what he does here this is crazy now if you don't know how difficult it is to make these ball he doesn't give a shit that that guy's in front of him that the referee's in front of him watch how quickly he does this [2:37:34] I mean, he's making the audience laugh. He's moving around that guy. He can't miss. This is the zone personified. He gets to a point in this... [2:37:44] where he's feeling so good he decides to start shooting things one-handed. Watch this. Watch this. One-handed. [2:37:51] One-handed. These are tiny little pockets. He's shooting one-handed with English and getting position. Everyone's going crazy.

[2:37:59] I mean, that's how fucking good Ronnie O'Sullivan was. [2:38:05] Like... [2:38:06] But the book is really about managing madness. [2:38:10] It's about him being sober, and now he's kind of taken a lot of that insane competitive drive. Now he runs. Like he's a runner. Like he runs long distances. And he talks about that and meets up with his running club, and they all get together and go and run together. But it's like it's just managing whatever the fuck that – and he's also describing even in his prime. He was saying – he was thinking he's worthless. He's thinking he's not good enough. He's going to fall apart. He's going to choke. He's going to this. He's like all these demons are popping up. [2:38:40] It's just everybody's like terrified of him. He shows up. It's like, oh, gee, the genius is here because he's a genius. Like he's a snooker playing genius. There's something about what he does. It's just different than everybody else. But the book is like it's not just about like picking the perfect cue. It's really about managing madness. [2:38:58] And – [2:38:59] Everyone who's great is fucking crazy. [2:39:02] But you can... [2:39:04] I think. [2:39:05] Like Chappelle does. You can take that greatness and just throw it into the thing you do and love it while you're doing it. [2:39:12] It doesn't have to be a demon. It doesn't have to be an adversary. It could be like... [2:39:19] just this romantic affair of you being so fortunate to be able to pursue this thing but maintaining [2:39:26] that same level of enthusiasm. I don't know if the same

[2:39:30] Level of enthusiasm, though, can be maintained in something that has like a winner and a loser, like a game where there's so much riding on each shot. Yes. Versus art. [2:39:41] which is like Dave goes – he's already won. The show's sold out. He knows how to do comedy. He gets out there. They all cheer. He's got great material. He can't wait to make them laugh. He already won. Well, that's the problem with turning the art into the competition. Yeah. She said there, right? The rankings. Well, that means that even if I did it and enjoyed it, but I'm number three or whatever, that's horrendous. That's not good. Yeah. There's podcasts that game the system. [2:40:11] So they have more downloads than everybody else. [2:40:15] And so relatively speaking, you know, so it's like a scam. [2:40:20] And so, like, they'll be very highly ranked, but no one's ever watched or heard of it. I think... [2:40:26] But they get quoted in magazines as being the number two podcast in the world. Oh, dear. But that's really what it is. It's like you've figured out a way – which there's nothing wrong with that. If you want to do that, you can game the system. But it doesn't matter. Like what are you doing? Like are you doing something that you're putting – like – [2:40:42] I don't talk to anybody that I'm not interested in talking to. That's it. It's the only reason why I do this. I talk to people that I think will be fun, and I look forward to it, and I still do. That's why I do it. [2:40:52] That's why... [2:40:53] It continues to work because I do it the same way I've always done it. I just talk to people that I like to talk to. No like, oh, if I got that guy on, he's super famous. That'll get a big rating. Data system. Yeah. There's a lot of famous people that I've said no to because I'm just not interested in them. I'm like, yeah, maybe that'll get a lot of people, but…

[2:41:12] I don't. [2:41:13] I don't want to do that. What I've found... [2:41:15] the single best determinant for when I know that modern wisdom is going well, [2:41:20] is if I wake up on the morning of the episode, and I can't wait for it to be 2 p.m. I'm like, fucking yes! I get to speak to such and such today. And then I finish up and I go... [2:41:29] I learned something. That was fucking cool. Like, that was a good one, two, three, four hours. That was a good day. [2:41:35] And then there's other days when I've like... [2:41:38] I don't know. I wake up and I just think, I should have thought a little bit more about it. I'm looking forward to this, but I'm not super fired up. And the more that you push away from that instinct with whatever you're doing, [2:41:49] Because your instinct is ultimately your only competitive advantage that you have, because it's the most non-fungible thing that you've got. So Douglas Murray told me this story. It's a really fascinating one about this guy. When Douglas was first on the scene. [2:42:02] This guy that was the head of the paper that he was at accumulated all of the fans and all of the foes that you would in an industry like that over the space of a couple of decades. And he decides that he's going to release a – [2:42:16] West End show about the life of Prince Charles in rhyming couplets. [2:42:22] Douglas is like, what? Okay, well, you know, you trust him. This guy, this illustrious history. So he must know what he's doing. And, uh... [2:42:33] by the opening night interval... [2:42:35] There is nobody left in the entire auditorium, including the cast. [2:42:39] Everybody's left. And this guy is dejected and all of the people, all of the enemies that he's accumulated throughout his career, they start sharpening the knives and they come out. And he's just despondent. He's like so, so sad. Douglas sees him a couple of weeks later and he goes, fucking West End show.

[2:42:56] about the life of Prince Charles in rhyming couplets, what were you thinking? [2:43:00] He said, [2:43:01] Douglas said, [2:43:02] "'I followed my instincts. "'And the thing is, instincts, they may sometimes lead you wrong.' [2:43:07] but they're the only thing that's ever led you right. [2:43:10] I thought... [2:43:11] That's such a cool insight about... [2:43:15] Yes, you're going to make some errors if you follow that, and maybe you need a team around you or a friend to go, ah, not with that one. But you just going, I think this guy's interesting. I think this girl's interesting. I think this topic's important, and I'm going to talk about it. Maybe he just did a bad job. Like, look at Hamilton. They did a rap about Alexander Hamilton. It's fucking huge. [2:43:38] okay yes in a modern context you might have a great idea but the delivery is wrong yeah yeah that's an interesting one totally if you think about Hamilton like Hamilton is a great example that's that [2:43:48] Play is gigantic. It's on Netflix now. And it keeps on crushing. Yeah, it's killing it. Yeah. And it's so preposterous. If you think about it, they're talking in modern language. [2:43:59] about... [2:44:00] a guy who lived hundreds of years ago. That doesn't even make any sense. They have black people playing white people. This is going to be weird. It's great. [2:44:07] Where do you think that drive comes from in people, you know, that demon thing? Is there a common thread that you've seen with the people that have got it? [2:44:16] Yeah, most of them had unhappy childhoods. [2:44:20] Yeah. It's very rare that someone has, like, the best in the world demon, and their childhood was awesome.

[2:44:28] It's very rare. Generally speaking, there's something there. Something, some loss, some trauma, something not good, some lack of what you needed when you were young. You didn't get it. And, you know, and then you're like, I'm gonna fucking show everybody. Like Mike Tyson, maybe the best example of that ever. Like for a period of time, the scariest heavyweight that ever walked the face of the planet. [2:44:54] and redefine the heavyweight division in modern boxing. [2:44:58] And, you know, he was 13 years old when Customato had adopted him and his life was hell before that. It was hell. No love was crime and being around the worst people. And then all of a sudden he's in the Catskills with this guy who's a psychologist and one of the greatest boxing coaches of all time. [2:45:16] and also a hypnotist. [2:45:18] And is hypnotizing him on a regular basis when he's 13 years old and teaches him to be the best. And so then he's got this, I will show you that I'm worth something. [2:45:28] I will show you that I'm special. There's one thing that I'm good at, and that is separating men from their consciousness. [2:45:34] finding a way to get in touch with them, get close enough at launching, launching bombs and watching them drop. [2:45:41] And he was the best at it. And it was, I think, the drive to be the best. It has to come from some – there's got to be something wrong. [2:45:50] where you have that fire inside of you. [2:45:53] I love thinking about this. I think it's been the [2:45:56] The question that I've probably been the most obsessed by since doing the show, the price that people pay to be...

[2:46:01] somebody that you admire. I think it's just it's just endlessly interesting. So [2:46:07] One thing that comes to mind there is, do you know what the fundamental attribution error is? It's like we attribute to other people motive for their action. It's like their character. But for us, it's situation. So, for instance, I cut you off in traffic because I'm late for work. You cut me off in traffic because you're a dick. Right. So we have this asymmetry in how we judge other people's behaviors as opposed to our own. I think that there's an equivalent here when we think about our parents. [2:46:37] like parental attribution error, maybe, which would be... [2:46:42] we attribute to our parents our shortcomings [2:46:46] but not necessarily our strengths. Right. So we're very happy. Like modern pop psychology, it's like a rite of passage to lay at the feet of our parents. I've got anxious attachment. [2:46:56] because nobody ever came to look after me. And you go, yeah, maybe. [2:47:00] But also... [2:47:02] Isn't this the reason that your hyper vigilance means that no one ever gets to take advantage of you? It's like, I am unable to relax and chill out because love was always predicated on me performing. It's like, yes. [2:47:15] but also it's driven you to be an incredibly successful person. And I think, [2:47:19] we should just be a little bit cautious. [2:47:22] when laying at the feet of our parents only our shortcomings, they can either have both. You can either say that my strengths and my shortcomings come from my parents, or my strengths and my shortcomings come from my own agency. But you can't say I authored the things that I like about myself, but the things that I don't like about myself came from some past situation. Yes. Victim mentality. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

[2:47:44] Yeah. [2:47:45] Yeah, and also [2:47:47] Bad things that happened to you when you were a kid, being bullied. [2:47:50] Being bullied is terrible at the time, but it leads many a person to say, I'll fucking show you. [2:47:56] You know, and then you get... [2:47:58] this incredible result. But then the thing is, like, are you happy? [2:48:02] That's the real dance. The dance is between success and happiness. And a lot of people have achieved success but have not achieved happiness, and they'll die a loser. Well, that's you sacrificing the thing you want for the thing that's supposed to get it. And that's why, like, okay, what's your definition of success? Right. Interesting question. Would you just want to be the best in the world? [2:48:21] Maybe like there's no... [2:48:23] Bad? That's not a bad... Well... [2:48:26] It's this thing we talked about before too. [2:48:29] That just because something's difficult doesn't mean it's good. [2:48:32] And there's a lot of things that you do that are very difficult to do. And then you see other people have achieved them. You say, that must be really worthwhile. And then you do it and you realize like, oh, this isn't worth anything. This is just hard to do. This sucks. [2:48:46] That's often the case with success. [2:48:48] Because if you become incredibly successful and then you have all these haters and, you know, like – [2:48:54] the guy who wrote the shitty play, like, they're, [2:48:57] They come for you and they they want to chop you down and that's part of the game that you're playing and if you don't like that, [2:49:06] If you don't like that, but then you've gotten trapped in it and you're constantly being attacked and you listen to it and you pay attention to it. You see it with successful people. You see it really with famous people, especially young people. They have no history with this. And then all of a sudden it's just thrown at them. And then they are both the thing they wanted and something they would never want, which is to be like constantly under attack. I've thought about –

[2:49:31] how brutal it must be to have the talent... [2:49:34] but not the constitution to be able to handle success and fame. So I don't know whether you've been tracking Lewis Capaldi, the Scottish singer. So there's a great documentary on Netflix. You've got to watch it. How I'm Feeling Now. It's a bit old now. It's like maybe four or five years old. [2:49:49] Lewis Capaldi breaks onto the scene. [2:49:51] unbelievable voice he's been playing working men's pubs around scotland and is just a fucking phenom right um [2:49:59] billions of streams, billions and billions of plays, arena tour, global tour, all the rest of it. [2:50:04] COVID happens. [2:50:06] He's back in his mum and dad's house near Glasgow. [2:50:09] in Scotland. [2:50:10] And he's in the hut out the back trying to do the difficult second album. [2:50:14] And there's the pressure of the world on him. [2:50:16] Now, he's got the talent. [2:50:18] But the pressure from... [2:50:21] agencies, from record label, from fans, from himself, from his parents, from his peers, from everybody, starts to get on him. It weighs on him so heavily that he develops. [2:50:31] a tick. Oh, Jesus. Like Tourette's. It turns out he's always had Tourette's, but the pressure has caused him to... [2:50:37] Like, he can't... [2:50:39] He can't perform. [2:50:40] And toward the end of the documentary, he goes back out on stage at the O2 in London. [2:50:47] does the thing, walks out on stage and he's still doing this and you've tracked this whole journey. This is toward the end. [2:50:52] and he can't get his words out. [2:50:53] This is his calling in life. This is what he was built to do. This is what he was made for. And his talent has been taken away from him.

[2:51:05] by the pressure of trying to do the thing, not by his inability to do the thing. And this is such a fucking unique kind of hell. [2:51:12] I think about fighters that have performance anxiety that just can't get themselves... [2:51:18] into the octagon with the lights on them, put them in [2:51:22] the training camp, that they're sparring, there's not that same amount of pressure, not yet, and they've... [2:51:27] They're unbelievable. [2:51:29] And Lewis Capaldi did Glastonbury, I think, two years ago. And the same thing happened. Comes out on stage and basically can't sing. You're hearing these little croaks and squeaks come out of him. And then this year... [2:51:42] He comes back out. He's done a ton of mindfulness, got his health in order, mental health work, therapy, comes out and fucking destroys it. Oh, wow. Dude, it's like it makes the hairs on my arm stand up. It's so fucking cool. Wow, that's awesome. That's a great story. That's what I like to see. [2:52:01] I like to see someone who fucks their whole life up and gets it back together again. I love that. I really do. Because I think... [2:52:07] That's what people really root for. [2:52:10] They really root for you to get it back together again. What they don't root for is once you're on top, like staying on top. They like you to fall. Yeah. Yeah, that's a little too much. Well, I mean, I think especially with – [2:52:22] With what most people feel, they want to see a little bit of themselves in that story. And they want to see a little bit of struggle. Right. And they also know that they've fucked up their life. Because everybody's fucked up their life at some point in time. Redemption. Yes. If this person can be there and lose it and then come back. Maybe I can get my shit together. That's the problem. As a 42-year-old alcoholic. Yeah. You're not going to be Lewis Capaldi. Maybe you are. Maybe you're Oliver Anthony. You know, Churchill didn't get into power until he was 65. Wow. So...

[2:52:52] all of my life up until now would be less than two thirds of the, [2:52:57] the warm-up set for Churchill starting his thing. Right. So I just... You never know sort of when this stuff's going to come along. I do love, though, the... [2:53:07] The idea of watching somebody climb to the top [2:53:10] lose it and then turn it back around again i think it's just such a fucking wonderful idea we all love that but i think it's because we try to see some of ourself in someone which is why we don't like things that are created by a corporation where they put together a band like the monkeys or something like that and fake nepotism silver spoon baby we hate all of that we hate all that we hate all the people handed their life [2:53:33] On a silver platter. If it feels like somebody didn't earn it. Yeah. Yeah. I worry... [2:53:39] I worry about where motivation comes from for people. [2:53:44] in a way, if you... [2:53:46] are able to game the system [2:53:48] which people are now, they can speedrun relatability and authenticity. But you don't know if this is some K-pop thing, some industry plant-style scenario that's just been placed together to try and get this... [2:54:00] give you a sense of resonance with this person that doesn't deserve it. They didn't actually struggle in that sort of a way, but they can construct the narrative that they did. And, uh, [2:54:11] I think... [2:54:12] In a world that's become increasingly prefabricated, like people are looking, they're scrutinizing very aggressively. Is this person who they say they are? This is the hypocrisy that points out that they're not. Right, right. And that's where you get performative vulnerability. Oh, woe is me. They pretend to, not pretend to have Tourette's, although I'm sure some people do.

[2:54:32] They pretend they're struggling. Correct. Yeah. Because I need the sympathy vote. [2:54:36] Yeah. [2:54:39] Ooh. Yeah. Isn't that an interesting thing? Well, the real problem is when someone pretends and you catch them pretending like that, then you're never going to trust them again. You could fail. [2:54:46] You can fail and fuck up. You can think you got it right and you got it wrong and you just, oh, fuck. But if you pretend... [2:54:54] If you lie, if you show deception, if you pretend you're something that you're not and they find out, like Ellen, you know, she's a nice lady. She's all dancing. Meanwhile, she's fucking screaming at people and mean. Yep. You know, that's like, oh, you were lying. That is fucking catnip to people. Ooh, they love it. [2:55:14] Yeah, well, there's nothing that the internet wants more than to find somebody that's a hypocrite. [2:55:18] Sure. Because the internet is basically one big spot the difference competition. You said this thing here, you behaved this way here. I can compare the two. [2:55:27] You have fallen short. And the fucking jury comes down and smashes you in the head. It's also because we crave authenticity. [2:55:34] We wish we had it. [2:55:35] We crave it in other people. [2:55:37] We want – like we're all trying to – we're watching all these different people like this guy play golf and that guy play music and we're watching all these people do all these different things and we're getting something out of it all. There's a reason why you like that thing on Netflix. It's like the – it fuels the human condition. It gives you happiness. It's like it's some – in a genuine moment like that, it's like a very special –

[2:56:03] element that it adds to your life. [2:56:05] And we crave that. [2:56:07] And it's hard to know what's real and what's not real. [2:56:10] That's why people get mad at me when I say I like AI music. [2:56:14] Oh. Like I know it's not real. I still like it. But I don't like it the same way I like listening to Johnny Cash sing Hurt. [2:56:23] You know what I mean? It's like there's an authenticity to that. There's a real thing to that. It's very tangible. It's different. There's an upper bound on it. I certainly think... [2:56:33] I'm friends with a lot of musicians, and one of the issues I think that they have with the AI revolution, apart from the fact that they're coming for our jobs, which is obvious, is that… [2:56:43] Learning a musical instrument is really fucking hard. [2:56:45] And it takes a very long time. [2:56:48] I think that the revolution for podcasting has made it fucking fantastic for people to feel less lonely and have exposure to conversations and information they never would have done. [2:57:00] But... [2:57:01] Anybody that sticks a microphone in front of them can record a podcast. It may be a totally shit podcast, but if you give me a guitar, I can't make notes come out of it. So the bar that you need to get over to just be... [2:57:14] It's acceptably proficient, enough to be able to have the conversation, right? Everybody does what is equivalent of a podcast. Everybody that has never recorded a podcast has had a great conversation over dinner and gone, dude, if we recorded that, that would have got millions of plays on YouTube. So everyone is a little bit closer to this.

[2:57:44] your fucking fingers need to go on the saxophone. Or this is how you need to [2:57:48] pick the strings in order to make the sound come out of the guitar. Yeah. [2:57:51] And if you leapfrog it, that feels like a little bit like a technology-enabled nepotism in a way. You've got yourself toward the end. You shouldn't be able to make this. This is like a guarded and highly invested. I mean, you guys see this in comedy. In comedy, you're like, dude, until you're eight, like the first seven years, like they're just you earning your keep. And then you're right, whatever it is, like it's a thousand shows. And once you've done a thousand spots, then you can say that you've started doing comedy or whatever it is. For podcasting, I think it's like 150 episodes. [2:58:21] your advice? And I'm like, once episode 150 starts, you have begun doing a podcast. Up until then, it's basically a warm-up set. And, uh, [2:58:29] I think with music, because it's such a high... [2:58:33] investment. [2:58:34] that people need to have. [2:58:35] at the very, very beginning. [2:58:37] this sense that there is a shortcut that allows people who haven't earned their way to get there. It would be like if you were using AI to write comedy sets. [2:58:44] Yeah, I think you're correct, but I also think that's probably what Lions – [2:58:49] felt when people invented guns. [2:58:52] Like, this is bullshit. I've been chasing you motherfuckers down and eating you for thousands of years, and all of a sudden you just squeeze your little finger and I die instantaneously? That's bullshit. [2:59:03] It's coming. It's coming. It's coming in all forms of entertainment. They've figured out what you like. They've got a giant catalog of billions of hours of human beings paying attention to things, and it's coming.

[2:59:16] It's coming. It's going to overwhelm you, and it's going to be indiscernible from reality eventually. It's going to be something that you physically experience as well as visual. [2:59:25] and audio. You're going to have the whole experience. We'd better enjoy ourselves while we can. Yeah, have fun while you can. [2:59:32] Chris, I appreciate you very much. It's always awesome talking to you. Your podcast is excellent. Tell everybody where they can get it, where they can find you. Modern Wisdom on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, Chris Williamson on YouTube, etc., etc. I appreciate the fuck out of you, man. I appreciate the fuck out of you too, brother. It's always good talking to you. It's always fun. Goodbye, everybody. Peace. [2:59:55] Thank you. [3:00:06] This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Lots of places can accidentally expose you to identity theft. Doctors' offices, online retailers, insurance companies, the list goes on. Thankfully, LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone could do on their own. LifeLock keeps an eye on your personal information, credit applications, finances, and more. [3:00:36] Suspicious, like new loans or changes to your financial accounts, they'll alert you right away. All through text, phone, email, or the LifeLock app. Even better, alerts are automatically activated the moment you become a LifeLock member. No extra work on your part. Get the alerts that could make all the difference. Don't wait. Join LifeLock now. Visit LifeLock.com slash J-R-E and save up to 30% your first year.

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